From a pve perspective, realize just how awful all the points but relentless strikes that are spent in the sub tree are. Serrated blades is the only other thing that even sort of contributes to dps, and as noted elsewhere armorpen in the pve setting is alot worse in the expac than it is now, re:scaling issues. So, that's 12 points that are completely wasted.
From a pvp perspective, although hemo is cool and alot of the utility there is also cool ... I'd say the utility of Hunger for Blood is unrivaled by any of the stuff you took instead, unless it was nerfed into the ground in the last patch. In addition, CttC doesn't seem like much of a pvp talent to me but it seems like you went to the top of assassinate for it specifically.
This isn't bringing the numbers into it, I'll leave that to others, but ... some things to consider.
I understand, but hemo has some raid utility as well.
If the Deadly Brew change regarding Instant no longer applying Deadly goes through, how much of a dps decrease is that? Does it push Combat something overtop?
Filler talents in a 51 point combat build: 2-9
Filler talents in a 51 point subtlety build: 3-8
Your assumption is rather outdated for WotLK.
I was not comparing the amount of fillers in Sub to those in another tree. What I was getting at was the points after Relentless Strikes (and Opportunity depending on build) could be used in straight DPS talents in other trees. I can see it being much better should the charges from Hemo be taken out (and IIRC from what I remember reading Hemo still has charges) but IMO it doesn't look like taking Hemo over the self DPS increasing talents is worth it in that build.
But I don't have beta access, so I can't really test anything myself. So if I'm wrong, then by all means let me know. You just seem to be very condescending in your post, which I hope is not the case.
If the Deadly Brew change regarding Instant no longer applying Deadly goes through, how much of a dps decrease is that? Does it push Combat something overtop?
Where'd you see that change? I haven't seen anything to the extent of that posted. =/
Where'd you see that change? I haven't seen anything to the extent of that posted. =/
It hasn't been posted, but it's quite possibly official.
If it is staying, it is a good thing (and if it isn't, I wouldn't be surprised if it is changed anytime soon), Deadly Brew is an overpowered talent. It helps bringing Combat and Mutilate closer (DB is one of those talents that make Mutilate too good, especially with scaling poisons), and I am sure we're getting buffs to compensate.
Last edited by Neto- : 09/19/08 at 3:30 AM.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
He's referring to the bug that Deadly Brew is making IP proc a different poison than DP and other poisons not proccing a second poison at all, which I don't think is a change and just a bug.
Originally Posted by koaschten
In the current build Deadly Brew is not working. Instant Poison seems to proc Crippling Poison, Wound and Mind-numbing seems to proc nothing.
That's just basically an extension of the "I'm lazy" reason for taking a profession. Any amount of gold can be earned through other means if you put the time/effort into it, so although it might be easier to acquire enough gold to buy something, you could instead have the tangible benefits of another profession as well as whatever you wanted to buy with additional effort.
This is similar to the Tauren racial debate in which people used to argue that it wasn't that big a deal, it's the same amount of extra stamina as getting your shield enchanted (or leg enchant, etc). To which people would reply, no it is a big deal because the Tauren can go get their shield enchanted as well. In this case, you're saying you can earn extra gold by farming, doing daylies or whatever. Well, the simple response is that if someone picked up JC and was making extra money off of it, could also spend time doing whatever you plan on doing and would still come out ahead by the same amount (honestly the time spent buying ore, posting auctions, etc with the right mods is really negligible). On top of that, even if you played WOW as your job there is a finite amount of time in a day. So I still think there is a strong argument for having extra gold around, at least until the point in progression in which you've replaced all/most of the possible BOE/craftable upgrades. Then obviously, you'd want to pick up both of whatever crafting professions end up coming out on top.
That's a fallacious comparison, as it's possible to have "enough" money, but it's impossible to have "enough" hit points - more is always better. It's true, a member of a money-making profession can make more money than someone without; however, it's also true that the person without can still make more money than he could ever hope to spend, and, more to the point, can make enough money to enchant all their gear, pay for repairs, by consumables, etc. without spending an unreasonable amount of time farming. Having a good money-making profession makes it *easier*, certainly, but it's by no means necessary - it conveys no advantage that can't be made up via other means, unlike the Tauren racial HP advantage. At least, this is the case until they make money in any way limiting (unlike the current situation).
Moreover, moneymaking needn't be performed on the same character that raids. If one really does need more gold than one can get without having a good moneymaking profession... spec that profession on an alt and make the money that way. This does require that you have an alt, but, lets be honest, a lot of us do. Which means that the only reason to factor in money in terms of raiding profession selection is if both a) you can't be bothered to farm (or AH arbitrage) enough to make the amount of money you need without a top moneymaking profession, and b) you're can't be bothered to level an alt with that profession. Such people certainly exist, but I feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever about not optimizing theorycraft around such people.
Besides which, there's absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the money professions at 80 will be the same as the money professions at 70. For instance, I made money extremely efficiently at 60 with LW, which is now a mediocre money profession at best. While it certainly seems likely that JC will be a solid profession choice at 80 from a financial perspective, there's no particular reason to expect that it's going to be better than enchanting, inscription, or the other professions one might be taking in it's place.
I had an opportunity to actually stab something in the PTR (at 70) that lived longer than 30 seconds (yay). With the bug in Deadly Brew, I had Instant Poison MH and Deadly OH. I haven't located a good program to look at buff gains and losses. My cycle is still full of kinks and running with only recount is fairly challenging (since the little Blizzard timers stack up and I can't read the time remaining). I'm sure SnD fell off and Hunger for Blood fell off at least once during the fight. I can't tell what buffs were active (I know I had kings, arcane brilliance, a shaman, 2 ret paladins, dps warrior, mage, lock in raid group). I specced Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft:
I did find this handy parsing program though that showed this:
and this:
Focused attacks is so much better than I thought that I'm blown away. The fight lasted 116.6 seconds. Focused attacks returned 594 energy, 5.09 energy per second. The 3 points in that talent are so much better than the 3 in Relentless Strikes - literally 3 times better. I suppose that's as it should be for a high tier talent, but it allows 1 extra mutilate every 12 seconds, 5 every minute. Just wow. In my opinion, Focused attacks is absolutely required.
Instant and deadly poison damage is way down - deadly especially. Envenom, 5790 damage crit, 3457 average. Another wow. 12% of total DPS. Was having a difficult time telling when the boss was and was not poisoned with my raid frames, so I definitely used mutilate against a non-poisoned target several times.
My stats:
1994 AP, 284 hit rating, 25.99% crit unbuffed, 11 Expertise (44 expertise rating), 110 passive armor pen
Wielding crappy daggers (Emerald Ripper and Prowler's Strikeblade) with Mongoose enchants
Had a dps warrior in the group (so I assume a battle shout)
The only weird proccy things I have are the Shard of Contempt and Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality
Parse for Jan'alai looks very similar in distribution. Envenom's big number was 6024 during that fight. If you love big numbers, you'll like Ambush and LOVE Envenom. Note that during the Jan'alai fight, Hunger for Blood removed 6 debuffs of some kind and returned 90 energy. Focused attacks returned less energy per second that fight (fewer attacks looks like, so makes sense - still 3 times as good as Relentless Strikes). Wish this would show me how often Seal Fate brocced without me having to actually look for and count them in the combat log.
Does anyone know of a site or program that does more more wow web stats type job of parsing PTR info?
Also, confirmed Instant is proccing Crippling (and not 100% of the time).
That's a fallacious comparison, as it's possible to have "enough" money, but it's impossible to have "enough" hit points - more is always better. It's true, a member of a money-making profession can make more money than someone without; however, it's also true that the person without can still make more money than he could ever hope to spend, and, more to the point, can make enough money to enchant all their gear, pay for repairs, by consumables, etc. without spending an unreasonable amount of time farming. Having a good money-making profession makes it *easier*, certainly, but it's by no means necessary - it conveys no advantage that can't be made up via other means, unlike the Tauren racial HP advantage. At least, this is the case until they make money in any way limiting (unlike the current situation).
Moreover, moneymaking needn't be performed on the same character that raids. If one really does need more gold than one can get without having a good moneymaking profession... spec that profession on an alt and make the money that way. This does require that you have an alt, but, let’s be honest, a lot of us do. Which means that the only reason to factor in money in terms of raiding profession selection is if both a) you can't be bothered to farm (or AH arbitrage) enough to make the amount of money you need without a top moneymaking profession, and b) you're can't be bothered to level an alt with that profession. Such people certainly exist, but I feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever about not optimizing theorycraft around such people.
Besides which, there's absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the money professions at 80 will be the same as the money professions at 70. For instance, I made money extremely efficiently at 60 with LW, which is now a mediocre money profession at best. While it certainly seems likely that JC will be a solid profession choice at 80 from a financial perspective, there's no particular reason to expect that it's going to be better than enchanting, inscription, or the other professions one might be taking in it's place.
I don't want to totally derail this thread, so this will be my last post on the topic. I totally agree with you that it is possible to have enough gold that was what I was referring to when I mentioned the point at which you've passed craftables and BOE epics in the raiding curve. However, I still think that you are ignoring my main point which is the LK will reset things. We will be in a position where there is a lot more to buy than simply "enchant[ing] all their gear, pay for repairs, by consumables, etc."
Here's what I mean, say you are rogue at 60 before BC came out and you wanted to get a jump on raiding as much as possible once BC rolls around. Now lets say that rogue A chooses a profession that allows him/her unlimited money and rogue B chooses a profession which has a permanent advantage (better gems, inscriptions whatever) but does not have unlimited money. They both race to 70 do some heroics get all of the blue dungeon set and start Kara. So rogue B has their permanent advantage from the superior crafting profession plus all the blue gear. Rogue A on the other hand has his/her blue gear but also BEFORE EVEN STARTING KARA, has [Vengeance Wrap][Fel Leather Gloves][Fel Leather Leggings][Fel Leather Boots] and has either [Blinkstrike] or [Vindicator's Brand] (because they were able to simply buyout the rep items). Now all of those items are at least a bit better than the equivalent blue Assassination or Wastewalker piece and some of them cost far outside of what simply farming would fund (in particular with blinkstrike, you are not paying a fixed price, assuming the seller isn't an idiot, you are in a bidding war with the people that DO have the money making professions). So the question that I'm asking is, is the permanent difference that rogue B gets from their profession better than the temporary benefit that rogue A gets from having all that gold? (This also ignores the other part of everything reseting which is that some of those fixed costs will be much higher, e.g. Mongoose probably costs about 1/10th the price it did when people were first starting Kara and voids were 100g+ each.)
If the answer is no those bought pieces outweigh the best crafting profession, then I think you have a strong argument for picking the best money making profession and then once you DO have all the money you need and you've bought all the BOE/crafables in LK, THEN you switch to the profession with the best permanent advantage.
As far as your second point that money making need not be made on the same character, I completely agree with you. However, unless you are dual boxing with two different accounts (which I do not think is a fair assumption), you are back to the same problem of time spent. That is, time spent leveling an alt could be time spent making gold for BOE/craftable upgrades.
Your final point is certainly a solid one, it is not completely clear which professions will be the best gold makers. However, a lack of clarity doesn't mean that it should simply be completely ignored. Comparisons can still be made, for instance, I would be willing to bet that JC will still be a better money maker than LWing will be in LC simply because one is more of a consumable than the other.
Sounds from that as though Focused Attacks is bugged - proccing off poisons, or something. Because average case there's no way it should be giving 5 energy per second. Lets break this down:
Let's say we're using 2x1.4 speed daggers. With SnD, WF, and, say, 10% haste from haste rating and buffs, this drops attack speed to about .82; thus, with two 1.4 speed daggers, you get 2.45 attacks per second. Assuming, say, 40% of those crit, , that's .98 crits per second. Given that HFB takes 1 energy per second to keep up, and Finishers eat about that much as well; hence, if one is regenerating, say, 14 energy per second, only 12 gets spent on Mutilate, thus we get about a Mutilate every 5 seconds.
A note before I continue: has it been verified whether Mutilate counts as one attack or two for purposes of Focused Attacks? That is, if both attacks crit, do you get 6 energy?
Regardless, assuming the more favorable interpretation of Mutilate and, say, a 60% crit rate for Mutilate attacks, that works out to an additional .24 crits per second thanks to Mutilate. Finally, with one Envenom every 10 seconds or so, again with a 40% crit rate, you get another .04 crits per second. That adds up to about 1.26 crits per second, or about 3.78 EPS. Note that this isn't even quite enough to do the number of Mutilates we had penciled in, so the actual regen would need to be a bit lower - say 3.75.
Now, don't get me wrong: Even 3.75 EPS is more than 5 points of Combat Potency, and about 50% more than what you get from 5 points in Relentless Strikes. It's a lot of regen. But I think if people are seeing over 5 energy per second, it's likely a bug, or perhaps a statistical fluke.
Edit: Macblade: Sure, if you're talking about a profession for leveling, that's a whole different ballgame. Those are clearly different than what's best for raiding - for instance, when I level alts, they're pretty much always mining/skinning, which is clearly not optimal for raiding. However, this isn't the "how to get stinking rich" thread - that's elsewhere on these forums. It's the "what's optimal for raiding as a rogue" thread. I'm interested in figuring out what's best, and I'll let people figure out for themselves how to get there. If that involves respeccing professions a couple times to make money, fine. If it involves leveling an alt, that's fine too. And if it involves just spending a ton of playing, that also works. Again, the goal here is not the journey - it's the destination. Once you know where you're going, it's pretty easy to figure out how to get there.
Focused attacks is so much better than I thought that I'm blown away. The fight lasted 116.6 seconds. Focused attacks returned 594 energy, 5.09 energy per second.
The 594 Energy return definetly seem to be bugged. Fancy maths aside, your parse states 108 crits (including non melee crits) which would make up for 324 Energy return in 117s, which in turn gives you 2.78 EPS.
I tried using Vulajin's LK Spreadsheet, available from the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet Thread, to compare various Mutilate Builds that have been linked here.
Unfortunately the version linked in the first post, which I assume is the latest version, doesn't contain the latest changes from the beta/PTR so I am loath to publish any of the result here because they are most likely to be meaningless in the context of beta and PTR content.
Searching for other spreadsheets didn't lead me to any that could be considered more reliable, although I do admit to not be very thorough when going through the search results. Any pointers in the right direction would be welcome.
Although there are problems with the results from Ariashley, these are either attributable to a problem with the parser or bugs still lurking on the PTR.
Obviously Deadly Brew is not working as expected and is a known bug. There have been several comments about how well Focussed Attacks is working, perhaps it is bugged and triggering off poison crits too. Unless everyone is using the same parser I will assume that the results posted are a reasonably accurate representation of what is happening in play.
Looking at the results, DPS seems to be on a par with current live values for Combat Swords given the level of gear.
Yes, the weapons are not the best however are higher DPS weapons of the same speed going to have that much influence over your total DPS?
Obviously the better your weapons are the better your DPS will be however Mutilate and White DPS make up ~50% of your total damage, faster weapons of the same DPS level would not effect your White DPS contribution, lower the Mutilate contribution but have a disproportionate effect on the contribution of poison dmg.
On the whole though the results do look encouraging. DPS seems to have been buffed but is not overpowered.
Even with the change to poison scaling and application rates from talents the fact is that fast weapons are still going to be better than slow ones. Not a problem if itemisation allows for this but what if it doesn't? I can accept this as a facet of the game, not everything we want is what we are going to get, though.
If/when they fix Deadly Brew to work as advertised the scaling problem with poisons will still be there albeit not as overwhelming as before the latest changes.
I don't think that poisons are broken as such, nor do I consider the Assassination Tree to be in need of much if any work.
What is obvious is that the mechanics still need working on to avoid item bottlenecks and wastage.
Normalisation of poison dmg according to weapon speed might be the answer to this as it was for weapon attacks. I wouldn't be surprised if this was introduced in the next push on the Beta and Patch 3 PTR.
The same mechanic for Focussed Attacks would also be welcomed, at least by me.
Last edited by Krollin : 09/19/08 at 7:22 AM.
Reason: Deadly Poisons work already, Deadly Brew is what I meant
198 procs returning 594 energy through only 108 crits, that definitely seems buggy.
I think it's safe to assume the 77 melee crits and the ambush are just fine because there aren't any mechanics that have been messed around with there, which brings us to 360 energy from 30 crits (120 procs). So what are we left with that could possibly trigger the proc and do it in such a way to be obviously bugged (eg mutiple procs from the same crit)?
IP had 9 crits, envenom 3, and mutilate 11+7.
If you want nice even numbers, multiply the mutilates by 6 and add the procs from the others to getthe right number. That potentially means that mutilate isn't proc'ing 1 instance of +3 energy or 2 as Aldriana surmised, but 6. There's no way that could be right, that would be a noticeable and very obvious jump in energy.
For other numbers I couldn't get it to work out evenly which leads me to one conclusion, something other than crits are triggering the FA proc. Perhaps a party/buff effect? I know that up until recently Shaman were able to eat each others effects. Was there another rogue in your group (with a slightly lower crit rate)? If you were both mutilate and each crit was proc'ing FA for both of you, that may go a long way to explaining it.
Certainly it should be easy to test just how FA is bugged, by testing each ability individually and/or grouping with another rogue.
Going back to the discussion about professions, would any of the BOP JC Trinkets make JC worth keeping over enchanting? I've seen a number of them that look fairly useful but haven't seen too many of the ones that drop from the new instances so I don't have much to compare it too.
Trying to bring gold into the point of picking the best rogue professions has no place in the discussion. The point of theorycraft is to attach numbers to tangible things and optimize DPS. The value of gold differs from person to person. What you are trying to do is like what Kinsey did when scientifically looking at sex. Because you cannot place a scientific value on love he kind of messed things up for some people. It's the same issue here. Gold has no place in this discussion.
Let's keep it to things that translate into DPS unless you can figure out how much gold someone will be making per unit time and then what they can buy per amount of gold and what those buys translate into DPS. If you can do that then you have a gold -> DPS formula and feel free to include it in the discussion.
Looking at the wording of those abilities, it appears that the weapon one - should it be added - might work on any weapon, as it doesn't say "yours" like the bracer and glove ones do. So I'm guessing BS would only add the two sockets regardless of whether the third one is real. And this additionally makes sense in that 2 sockets would be an extra 40 AP, putting it right in the mix with the other top (non-LW) talents. In fact, if there exist good crafted weapons, BS might even pass them for the second spot.
Ald, are you thinking of 2 Bright Crimson Spinels at 20 AP each? The early gems discovered in Beta are much higher than that, for instance:
Bright Cardinal Ruby means 40 AP each slot. Also the blue equivalent, the Bright Scarlet Ruby is 32 AP each slot. Not sure if that will change your views at all or if I misinterpreted what you said, but BS certainly looks attractive depending on how good the Blacksmithing Weapons are for rogues.
I would like to return to the SF/ruthlessness issue with a fact that i tried to put together a spec where i will take only the talents what will benefit my own dps in a measurable way and there was left no fillers at all.
The spec is here: Best DPS Spec
That is made with a given fact that envenom is superior to rupture and the buff from MP would be cancelled out by some other class (if your raid does not have one, then i say there is no use for you either to seek the max dps) The only talent what makes me wonder is Quick Recovery, but as stated already, the last 2 pts in SF will outdps that also.
Most useless talent in this build is Overkill and the second is CB, all others are a significant DPS increase.
I have another question, maybe it has been through here, but starting to read all the posts (majority of this thread) would hurt my time spent in the game
The Blood Poisoning debuff in combat tree, will that be overwritten by some other buff? Like the hunter one in TBC +3dam or some other. Havent had time to fill in on this matter. If not, then added 2% of the raids damage to the rogue, would increase its dps by alot. Given an extreme example from tbc, a Brutallus fight, where guilds are pushing over 30K dps. Blood poisoning debuff would make 600DPS from that. Watching the estimated dps numbers for wotlk they have almost doubled, so the benefit would be around 1K DPS.
Ald, are you thinking of 2 Bright Crimson Spinels at 20 AP each? The early gems discovered in Beta are much higher than that, for instance:
Bright Cardinal Ruby means 40 AP each slot. Also the blue equivalent, the Bright Scarlet Ruby is 32 AP each slot. Not sure if that will change your views at all or if I misinterpreted what you said, but BS certainly looks attractive depending on how good the Blacksmithing Weapons are for rogues.
Just a typo. I meant to say 80 AP, which would make the "right in the mix with the other professions" comment make sense, given that enchanting is 80 and inscription 64 + glyph. I'll edit.
The 594 Energy return definetly seem to be bugged. Fancy maths aside, your parse states 108 crits (including non melee crits) which would make up for 324 Energy return in 117s, which in turn gives you 2.78 EPS.
If you look at the damage parse he linked, and add up all the Non-poison crits, including all the mutilate ones, it comes out to 99 Crits with melee attacks. 99 is exactly half of the 198 Procs listed on the Energy Gains parse, so it seems that one of two things is happening:
A) Focused Attacks is bugged and proccing twice for every crit.
B) The parser is reading incorrectly (possibly a Combat Log Bug?) and reporting 2 procs for every one that happens.
Either way, if it were working as intended, you would have seen 297 Energy over 116.6 Seconds, or 2.55 EPS, which is still very strong for 3 talent points.
Just a typo. I meant to say 80 AP, which would make the "right in the mix with the other professions" comment make sense, given that enchanting is 80 and inscription 64 + glyph. I'll edit.
Reported in the profession thread that inscription no longer gets an extra glyph. Post
09/19/08, 2:01 AM
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