Thing is, gutting any one other talent isn't going to drop rogue DPS by nearly as much as gutting Deadly Brew does; Deadly Brew gave something over 500 DPS for two points, which you're simply not going to be able to do by gutting other talents unless you gut *all* of them.
I mean, it's a bit disappointing to be sure - it was a cool talent. But I'm not sure what they had in the way of other options, short of nerfing poison damage back to 2.X values.
Thing is, gutting any one other talent isn't going to drop rogue DPS by nearly as much as gutting Deadly Brew does; Deadly Brew gave something over 500 DPS for two points, which you're simply not going to be able to do by gutting other talents unless you gut *all* of them.
I mean, it's a bit disappointing to be sure - it was a cool talent. But I'm not sure what they had in the way of other options, short of nerfing poison damage back to 2.X values.
Now that they have gutted it so thoroughly, do you suppose they could re-implement Infectious Poisons (perhaps lowering the % damage increase)? I really loved the concept behind the talent, and even for a definitively PvP-based talent, it was really cool. I was upset to see it go, and honestly I believed they removed it first because they didn't want to cripple Deadly Brew. Now that they've gotten it out of the way, however, maybe they could add the extra poison flavor back
Also, I am eagerly awaiting the new numbers with these builds. I have a feeling Combat will be much, much closer to Assassination now, if not back on top. I just hope they haven't nerfed Assassination too much. Similarly, I hope they haven't nerfed the class's damage overall too much. They say classes need to be balanced, but I still feel rogues offer the least utility, and take the most babysitting, so we deserve that top spot. :/
I would be interested in the raw energy regeneration rate of combat now. Something I noticed on KJ, was that with the dragon haste buff you can easily push for 5s/5r/5e at times which made the experience very much more interesting. Granted SnD is 35% at the moment and glaives give another boost, but in wotlk we will have a 20% extra OH haste from WF and new vitality.
I'm a little disappointed with the hit to Deadly Brew, admittedly if it was as good as Aldriana's calculations say (500dps for 2 points, holy bejebus) then obviously something wasn't right. It's kinda sad, since that talent had a real flair to it that drew me to the build. I was really hoping to get my hands back on some daggers, now it looks like I still have to use swords =/
I'm just speculating at this point, but does this build seem viable for combat daggers? I think I've pretty much decided to just go with daggers period.
Deadly Brew was overpowered and we all know it. With how poisons are scaling with AP, it would be very hard to balance Combat and Mutilate while Deadly Brew still existed. Overall I really like the way our trees are laid out right now, except for Combat tier 4 obviously, it's still a huge mess and so is tier 5. Relentless Strikes changing to 3 points would be nice but meh - I wouldn't expect to see many changes from now on.
Also, looking forward the numbers on new combat talents.
I'm a little disappointed with the hit to Deadly Brew, admittedly if it was as good as Aldriana's calculations say (500dps for 2 points, holy bejebus) then obviously something wasn't right. It's kinda sad, since that talent had a real flair to it that drew me to the build. I was really hoping to get my hands back on some daggers, now it looks like I still have to use swords =/
There really is no way you can tell this already. If anything there's a big chance both specs will come incredibly close. The only real change to Mutilate was the 5% poison application nerf; other than Deadly Brew, which was, as I stated before, overtuned.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
I'm just speculating at this point, but does this build seem viable for combat daggers? I think I've pretty much decided to just go with daggers period.
Considering the 2piece set bonus of naxx gear, I would say the "max dps" build for combat dagger will take Blood Spatter. Something like this. Granted, it remains to be seen whether you take 5 points in lethality or RS (Though my gut feeling says lethality is probably more damage). I am pretty sure ruthlessness will not be very good for backstab builds point to point, due to lower use of finishers and the fact that with the SnD glyph and vitality you can probably do a full cycle just fine without it.
Am I missing something or did Mutilate lose it's increased chance to apply poisons as well after striking? Or did I imagine that?
Mutilate never had that extra. You are thinking of envenom.
I have a feeling that the poison talents (Deadly Brew, the 25% version of improved poisons, infectious poisons [RIP], etc) were designed before they decided to implement scaling poisons. With 2.x-esque (or slightly scaled up to account for ten extra levels) poison damage, they were entirely reasonable. With scaling poisons, they went right off the chart. Something definitely had to give, and for the sake of non-Assassination builds, i'm glad it was the talents (as much as i'll miss how crazy assassination was the last few builds).
Also, have to say i'm quite liking the changes to combat. Hopefully they're not quite done yet (LR remains glaringly unchanged), but they definitely seem to be moving in the right direction. The logjam of talents in tier 4 (for a sword/mace build, at least) feels a little awkward, but overall talent expenditure feels about right. I'm counting 6 points in "filler" right now for a 51pt combat sword build, 4 of which go nicely into Endurance/Imp Sprint (which i've always liked to have anyway, or alternatively Deflection/Riposte, for people who prefer those), leaving 2 points hanging around to drop, well, anywhere really. Fix up LR to be an attractive place to drop a couple of spare points into, even if it's not a dps talent, and i'd be pretty happy.
They made the right call with the Deadly Brew change. Given the changes to poisons scaling, this talent was simply way, way, too powerful, and would have made balancing the other trees in PvE against Assassination impossible.
The Combat changes are excellent. The tree now flows extremely well once you get past Tier 4. Lightning Reflexes needs to be changed to something like "Increases your dodge and agility by 2%/4%/6%."
Subtlety still needs a lot of work to be viable as a 51 point PvE tree. Sleight of hand needs to be changed into a damage talent (armor penetration?). Master of Subtlety needs to be tweaked to work with Shadow Dance. At that point, any remaining balance could probably be achieved by tweaking Hemo & BS coefficients.
Last edited by Andeh : 09/20/08 at 12:45 AM.
Reason: MIA "
This is complete conjecture, but I wonder if the Deadly Brew change in a way also pushes Mutilate more into an Envenom/Rupture cycle instead of Envenom spam. If you Envenom spam with MH IP, OH DP, you run a risk of having to either Mutilate without a DP stack (because you're about to energy cap) or having to Envenom with a really low amount of DP stacks, both of which are inefficient. So I'm guessing for Envenom spam you may actually end up wanting to use 2x DP.
On the other hand, if you're alternating Evenom/Rupture, while you could still have the same Mutilate issue, the odds of having a low stack of DP for Envenom are lower, so maybe for that cycle IP/DP is safer. Just an idea.
Also, I'm sad that Tricks of the Trade is no longer free. But even with the 15 energy cost I really like the ability.
With evis glyph, points into imp evis, and agression, + the new scaling of evis, is anyone thinking skipping on rupture (at least until u get 2 set naxx) and using evis in it's place might scale better? Or better yet could anyone run a test as I have no beta key and PTR is just... crap.
With evis glyph, points into imp evis, and agression, + the new scaling of evis, is anyone thinking skipping on rupture (at least until u get 2 set naxx) and using evis in it's place might scale better? Or better yet could anyone run a test as I have no beta key and PTR is just... crap.
Honestly, Blood Splatter is a much better talent than Imp Evisc (and for 2 points instead of 3), Rupture still scales better than Eviscerate with Attack Power, the Mangle debuff is more widely available, and Eviscerate only got 4% better from Aggression which is really a very small buff. The Rupture glyph gives two extra ticks (Rupture becomes 10 ticks instead of 8) for a 25% boost in Rupture damage (assuming you're not having trouble cutting it off early) compared to 10% crit on Eviscerate (a maximum of 10% additional damage if you had 0% crit, less the greater your crit % becomes). Additionally Rupture is already significantly superior to Eviscerate.
Based on the latest version of my spreadsheet, it appears Combat is still a decent 15% behind Assassination. Also, to address the recent question about Eviscerate, the combination of Imp Eviscerate/Glyph of Eviscerate/Aggression still can't touch Blood Spatter/Glyph of Rupture. Add in Serrated Blades (as in 7/51/13) and there's just no contest.
So, amusing tidbit: it turns out that energy regen with the new Focused Attacks is sufficiently high that 4+n4+r is no longer practical - the average cycle length is down around 13 seconds meaning the previous Rupture doesn't have time to tick off before it's time for the next one. As such, the relevant Rupture cycle is now 4+n4+n4+r, I think. And for that matter, if both envenoms are 1-Mutilate envenoms, you might even have time to squeeze in a third one before the Rupture wears off. I'm still working out how this compares damagewise to a straight Envenom cycle.
Something else to consider when working out specs: assuming one does 5000 DPS (which I think will be the right ballpark for a Naxx-25 geared rogue), each talent point in Fleet Footed is worth about 6 DPS for each second per minute that one is moving. Given that, in Naxx, only PW and Instructor are stationary, and the average number of seconds of movement is probably at least 3 seconds per minute, Fleet Footed is probably worth on the order of 20 DPS per point. Which is admittedly low-end for an Assassination Talent, but it's enough to be worth considering, particularly given the survivability benefits.
Something else to consider when working out specs: assuming one does 5000 DPS (which I think will be the right ballpark for a Naxx-25 geared rogue), each talent point in Fleet Footed is worth about 6 DPS for each second per minute that one is moving. Given that, in Naxx, only PW and Instructor are stationary, and the average number of seconds of movement is probably at least 3 seconds per minute, Fleet Footed is probably worth on the order of 20 DPS per point. Which is admittedly low-end for an Assassination Talent, but it's enough to be worth considering, particularly given the survivability benefits.
It's worth that amount plus whatever you gain from the stats on the boot enchant to replace a run speed enchant.
Well, yes and no. The first point is worth either 6 DPS per second of movement or the gain in boot stats, whichever is less; the second is straight-accross worth 6 DPS per second of movement. If the change in boot stats is worth more than the 6 DPS per second of movement, people just won't enchant their boots with run speed. So the 6 DPS per second per talent point is actually an upper bound on the value of the talent - in practice, it may be less.
Also, is there a boot speed enchant better than Cat's Swiftness? I haven't seen one go by.
Well, yes and no. The first point is worth either 6 DPS per second of movement or the gain in boot stats, whichever is less; the second is straight-accross worth 6 DPS per second of movement. If the change in boot stats is worth more than the 6 DPS per second of movement, people just won't enchant their boots with run speed. So the 6 DPS per second per talent point is actually an upper bound on the value of the talent - in practice, it may be less.
Also, is there a boot speed enchant better than Cat's Swiftness? I haven't seen one go by.
I've only seen Stam and Run Speed.
Keep in mind also that at 70 Surefooted is being changed to pick up 10 Crit rating in place of it's existing snare removal, which could have an impact.
What do you think about this? Anything I left out that would improve leveling speed? As I level, I'd fill out relentless strikes, get ruthlessness ... and then throw the other points into whatever. I have the option of ae grinding with UA and full LR, though I'll probably mostly quest. If you were to do heavy UA grinding, would remorseless attacks ever become worthwhile?
Edit for: I will most likely level with a pair of Vanir's (Fists), thus the CQC. And ... I'm sort of unexcited about killing spree. Especially if im fighting in or around a group of mobs ... do I really want to randomly switch targets alot? I've seen it suggested that it might be decent on a boss, w/o adds or something ... seems like it would be more annoying than anything while leveling.
Further Edit For: I mistakenly thought the talents were updated on wowhead too ... spec is correct now.
Keep in mind also that at 70 Surefooted is being changed to pick up 10 Crit rating in place of it's existing snare removal, which could have an impact.
For boot enchants, you have 16agi, 32ap, and 12 hit/12 crit.
Also, there is something very wrong with hit rates in the current beta patch. I have 12% to hit and missed 3 sinister strikes in a row on a level 80 mob. I also managed to miss a sap on a level 79. Unfortunately, this means any real dps testing will have to wait.
Hmm, the point about an Unholy DK is a valid one. That probably does indeed kill the need for run speed enchants on PvE gear, and definitely reduces the value of Fleet Footed.
In other news, revised stats weights for a Naxx 25 geared rogue:
Hence, the best pure Raid DPS Mutilate spec would appear to be this; if there is no pally to keep up the crit debuff, one would replace the three points in Turn the Tables with Master Poisoner.
Also of note: with the new change to Tricks of the Trade, it costs you about 110 personal DPS to use it every cooldown; thus, it is worthwhile from a raid DPS perspective only if the person it is being used on does more than 3700 DPS - which, of course, most primary DPSers will.
What do you think about this? Anything I left out that would improve leveling speed? As I level, I'd fill out relentless strikes, get ruthlessness ... and then throw the other points into whatever. I have the option of ae grinding with UA and full LR, though I'll probably mostly quest. If you were to do heavy UA grinding, would remorseless attacks ever become worthwhile?
Edit for: I will most likely level with a pair of Vanir's (Fists), thus the CQC. And ... I'm sort of unexcited about killing spree. Especially if im fighting in or around a group of mobs ... do I really want to randomly switch targets alot? I've seen it suggested that it might be decent on a boss, w/o adds or something ... seems like it would be more annoying than anything while leveling.
Further Edit For: I mistakenly thought the talents were updated on wowhead too ... spec is correct now.
How good is Prey on the Weak for leveling? While it's tremendous with a healer or with a tank, it seems lacking for a solo leveling build (I typically wait as long as I can before eating). Additionally, Repost also seems very strong for any leveling where a mob is attacking you. I suspect there is a different optimal leveling build depending on whether you plan to level with a partner, in a 5-man group, or mostly by yourself.
Combat changes are a nice step in the right direction, however my biggest complaint with the tree is still valid...they still haven't made it any funner to use.
Somebody else mentioned this earlier I think, but Killing Spree should be changed and modified in a way so that's it a finisher or something that can be worked into our rotation. Make it do 5 attacks if you build it up to 5 combo points or something. Balance it where need be so it's not overpowered but make it part of our rotation. I'm sick of SnD and Rupture cycles.
Some other thoughts.
- Change Lightning Reflexes to increase haste and drop it to 3 points.
- Move Blood Splatter to Combat. Or add some other bleed oriented talents so the tree synergizes with rupture. Maybe move Serrated Blades low into the tree. Basically make Rupture more fun to use.
- Move Quick Recovery into Combat so it synergizes with Prey On The Weak.
- Move Fleet Footed to T2 Assassination so both raid builds can pick it up.
This might change best professions for rogue a little. If Blacksmithing bracers socket and the fur lining stack, blacksmithing should make a strong second profession
Aldriana - you estimate the DPS contribution of Fleet Footed in movement-heavy fights. Does it make sense to estimate the contribution of Vigor for those fights as well? Instead of (or in addition to) reducing the off-target time you might add 10 energy (or perhaps some pro-rated amount) to the cycle calculation after each interruption. I'm wondering whether it might be better filler than a point in quick recovery...
09/19/08, 11:29 PM
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