Well, you shouldn't need to take a filler point in Quick Recovery anyway, but in terms of spending points in Vigor: Well, it's 10 extra energy every time you run out for long enough to cap out; if you do this, say, once a minute, you thus gain about one energy every 6 seconds, or about 35 DPS.

Note, however, that the set of fights you move that much is somewhat lower - you have to stay out a pretty long time before your energy caps out. It'll happen on Maexxna, Heigan, 4 Horsemen, and Sapphiron, and perhaps Gluth, Gothik, and KT as well - at least in parts of the fight - but most of the others, even the ones with movement, don't generally keep you between targets long enough to cap out.

Harder to quantify is the value in terms of smoothing out your cycle - the ability to queue an extra 10 energy will have tangible DPS benefits, they're just hard to measure.

All in all: it's a perfectly good piece of filler, and I probably would take it over Quick Recovery, but as there isn't any room in assassination for filler at this point I don't see it fitting in most builds.

Testing anything on Beta right now kind of sucks with the hit rating bug (hit rating is decreasing your chance to hit instead of increasing). Currently running a 15% miss rate on specials and 40% on white attacks.

Yes, but they could have tweaked that by changing the poison damage.
Removing the (PvE) usefulness of one of the funniest talent is somehow disappointing.

Did anybody noticed the nerf of Hunger for Blood, which only remove bleeding now - no more physical effect. I suppose it means Mutilate builds will again have serious mobility struggles, even more if, as some said, the reduction of movement impairing duration of Fleet Footed is changed to critical rating.

And I'm still wondering why Blizzard stay stubbornly fast on the Relentless Strike change and Overkill existence, despite they large impopularity, and the fact that they each clearly feel belonging to the other tree.
Perhaps they will be changed when they will finally tinker with Lightning Reflexes ?

Minor nitpick/question - is 3 crit on white damage better than 6 crit on Muti? Normally that'd seem like a yes, but assuming a Seal Fate build and the sickeningly high damage of Mutilate it might be worth taking Turn the Tables over Close Quarts Combat if Master Poisoner is needed.

It's not "3% crit on white damage". It's 3% crit on everything, included mutilate and envenom, so unless your mutilate somehow does more than 50% of your damage, you want dagger spec over TtT.

Not to be a dick, but: you *did* read the rest of the post, right? Including the part where I said TtT was 27 DPS per talent point, while CQC was 50 DPS per talent point?

I guess it's safe to assume that the change to focused attack is either a mistake, or it is meant to be reduced to 1 rank (and maybe replace overkill).

Either way, we will not see a talent that gives 320dps per point spent, anytime soon.

Aren't Heigan, Razuvious, the Horsemen and basically all the humans in Naxx "humanoids" ?

Most of them are Undead, actually. Maexxna is a Beast and would thus be effected, but the fact that most other bosses wouldn't is a valid one. So yeah, in Naxx you probably take 2 points in some combination of Fleet Footed, Quick Recovery, and Vigor rather than Murder. Then again, since none of those give large quantifiable benefits, you might just stick with Murder for use in 5 mans and farming, as you'll presumably be doing a fair amount of that while in the early days of the expansion. It's not a broadly applicable benefit, but it's a very powerful one on the stuff it works on (>100 DPS per point).

With the fixed Deadly Poison model in the Roguecraft sheet, I'm finding that Eviscerate is coming increasingly close to Envenom in CttC cycles. The one thing keeping it from closing the gap is Improved Eviscerate. However, Rupture is still predictably far ahead of both. This all assumes the "full Sunwell" gear set configured in the sheet at the moment. Aldriana, what's your latest finding on Env/Evis using the Naxx 25 setup?

Also, if you've modeled the latest changes yet, how do you find Shiv builds at this point?

I believe what they are trying to do is differentiate PvE and PvP builds. With HFB able to devour mortal strike and hamstring making it very appealing to arena players, DB being appealing to all players too. Now DB is squarely a PvP talent and HFB only marginally PvP oriented. I suspect that PvP mutilators will head for assassination/sub hybrids rather than 51pt assassination as a result. The synergy of Onslaught and Master of Subtlety could make for some obscene burst damage (albeit at the cost of DW spec), prep does a lot to help mobility problems, etc. There are a variety of options in this area, including one that picks up imp sprint and elusiveness.

I think you are confusing the change to the Surefooted enchant with the Fleet Footed talent though.

With raidbuffed and running with fast (1.4) daggers, it can be attainable with single DP, 6,37 DP hits per hand. But with slow (1.8) ones you will get 5,46 average DP hits per hand in 13 sec. This leaves almost no room for misses and brings the tip even more towards fast weapons. Thats sad.

One thing I noticed that might affect PvP assassination is that Improved Poisons no longer affect all poisons, but only Deadly and Instant. Strange enough, I have never yet seen this change mentioned, has this been so for a few beta pushes ago?

Edit: Thank you Kasrai - Exo for clearing that up.

It was mentioned in the last build IIRC and poisons other than Ip and DP have had their proc chance increased to 50% from the current 20-30.

I was wondering if anyone knows how far behind a sub daggers build is in dps behind Assination and Combat. I'd really like to raid as that with honor among thieves. I was wondering what would be the highest dps build as well.

One of the things is still find quite broken in the Mutilate build is that the apparent best MH dagger for this build is Edge of Oppression (1.3 speed 83,5 DPS from Heroic Magister) and is also the second best on OH (Brutal gladiator shiv being best).
That an heroic drop beats out any dagger from Sunwell purely because of its speed is still a sign that everything is not balanced as it should.

I personnally find a 23/43/5 Shiv build with swords to be within 5% of Mutilate and a good 10-15% ahead of a Combat SS-based build (without implementing the new Aggression).

Their solution to DP does close dps gap but it's a very "ugly" solution. The one thing i was looking forward too is not having DP constantly fall off with DP on a 1.8 offhand. Currently with a 41/20/0 Mutilate build and the Mutilator as offhand i keep losing the DP 5-Stack. I have to "rescue" that stack by using shiv about every 30 seconds which is quite annoying. Speccing Improved Poisons instead of Vile Poisons did not change much (and i rather use shiv once in a while then have lower damage on my poisons). The only way for me to have reliable DP is to use the PvP 1.4 speed offhand dagger.

So I can barely maintain my DP 5-Stack how am i supposed to use Envenom all the time?

Running with 2x IP and the old DB was a nice solution to this. A change to DB was necessary, but there would have been better solutions. Somethign along the line of:
Wound -> 100% Crippling
MindNumbing -> 100% Crippling
Deadly -> 30% Instant

Basically like the old DB, but instead of Instant applying Deadly, Deadly applies Instant at a reduced chance. So with Deadly on a weapon you have 30% chance to apply deadly and 9% to apply instant. This would allow mutilate rogues to run with 2x deadly, use envenom as they please and get 9% instant poison on each weapon instead of 30% like in the old DB.

If they keep the talent the way it is, they should at least make it a 1 point talent, or add the removed Infectious Pisons into the effect (but without the damage increase). Also improved poisons should be changed to 9% for 3 points, considering it has the same effect as the live one but affecting only 2 poisons instead of all of them (yes i know the utility poisons have 50% now).

I think what they're trying to do with the Deadly Brew nerf is make it clearly a pvp talent because it was previously way too good for both pvp and pve. Going with that, they should either add the thing from Infectious Poisons where the poisons apply to the healer to make it an even better pvp talent. Otherwise, they should add some sort of increase in poison damage to it to make it worthwhile to both pvp and pve builds.

I.e, make it either a really good pvp talent or a talent that's good (but not as good as before) for both.

I think 3.0 has officially killed the Slow Offhand Weapon for Mutilate. A 1.5/1.4 speed dagger will keep Deadly Poison more effectively nailed to the mob. It will also provide more Focused Attacks procs yielding more energy.

What I'm wondering is what gives more Focused Attacks Procs? Agility or Hit? I have this horrible feeling that Mutilate builds are going to completely fall into the itemization of Combat. Fast off hand weapons and high hit. And if we follow this line of thought even further, will fast Main Hands also lead to dps increase from poison procs and Focused Attacks energy gains?

It may be so, but it would be quite a strange change of mind, as they said several times they wanted a better interpenetration between PvP and PvE, and wanted to end the constant respec. Allowing a specialisation to be good at most thing is one of their new creed as it seems, and so separating so visibly talents would go quite contrary to this idea.

I'm surely mixing Surefooted/Fleet Footed, yes, sorry, I was focused on talents and didn't paid attention to enchant.
Actually, if they play it right, it could add a bit of interest in the itemisation.
If they alter either Focused Attack, either Combat Potency, to give energy according to the amount of damage done by the dagger, or in the inverse proportion of the speed, they could make one spec favoring slow daggers altogether, and the other favoring fast ones, which would help them enhance a different flavour.
More potential than having "slow weapons are always better except for the combat rogues OH".

Hit isn't going to increase the amount of crits you get one bit. I think a better comparison would be agility vs. crit vs. haste. Agility will give you more crits, Crit will give you a LOT more crits, and haste will increase the amount of attacks that you launch, allowing for more crits. Hit only increases the amount of non-crit white hits that will land.

Maybe I don't properly understand the hit/crit roll system, I'm not that well versed with theory crafting. But I always assumed, yes assumed, that each white attack first makes a roll to see if it hits and then, only if it hits, rolls to see if it is a crit. If this is so, more hits = more crits.

Once again, I don't actually know how the roll system is done in WoW. So, could someone enlighten us to how the hit/crit system works for white attacks?

Edit: So I looked it up on WoWWiki and white attacks use a 1-roll system. Long and short of it, scrap the hit idea and hand me a crow to eat.