PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 95

• Aldriana · 09/21/08, 3:15 PM

In my estimates to date, I've found 4+ finishers to do better DPS than 2-mutilate finishers; with 5/5 SF and Ruthlessness, given typical crit rates, this means you only need to do 1 Mutilate between finishers almost 50% of the time. Meanwhile, during a 24-pt SnD, one will typically regen on the order of 300 energy between normal regen and Focused Attacks, which is sufficient for 4 Mutilates with plenty of cushion leftover for finishers and dry spells in procs. Hence, doing 4+n4+r should be totally sustainable.

However, given the 18-20-sec duration of glyphed rupture and the almost 75% chance of completing those two finishers with 3 Mutilates or less, odds are actually pretty good that this cycle will be ready to Rupture again before the previous one has worn off. Hence, I think the top cycle is actually likely to be 4+r4+n(4+n) - that is, do you a rupture and an envenom, and, depending on how procs work out, possibly squeeze in another envenom before needing to rupture again.

Underz · 09/21/08, 3:16 PM

Ok, well im fairly new to these forums so dont shread me up toooo much. Obviously in Wrath mutilate is on top as things stand at the moment. Even with the recent changes to both Combat and Assassination. But could anyone please possibly tell me the exact difference in % of damage or DPS terms, of the 2 specs.

Say from a pure DPS perspective providing a you got the crit of a pally heres the mutilate spec.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

against what i think the best combat spec is going to be (providing) it stays like this which of course it wont. As it seems poisons still needs to be knocked down a peg and combat up a few with lightning reflexes etc.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

Of course correct me if im wrong with this spec for combat or muti from a pure DPS perspective.

Also, from what people know from blue posts etc. Do blizzard plan on having combat and mutilate on a par, because as it stands muti is rolling over combat at the moment. According the the Wrath spreadsheet im using muti is putting up some ridiculous number in comparison to the pathetic ones being shown by combat.

• Vulajin · 09/21/08, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

In my estimates to date, I've found 4+ finishers to do better DPS than 2-mutilate finishers; with 5/5 SF and Ruthlessness, given typical crit rates, this means you only need to do 1 Mutilate between finishers almost 50% of the time. Meanwhile, during a 24-pt SnD, one will typically regen on the order of 300 energy between normal regen and Focused Attacks, which is sufficient for 4 Mutilates with plenty of cushion leftover for finishers and dry spells in procs. Hence, doing 4+n4+r should be totally sustainable.

However, given the 18-20-sec duration of glyphed rupture and the almost 75% chance of completing those two finishers with 3 Mutilates or less, odds are actually pretty good that this cycle will be ready to Rupture again before the previous one has worn off. Hence, I think the top cycle is actually likely to be 4+r4+n(4+n) - that is, do you a rupture and an envenom, and, depending on how procs work out, possibly squeeze in another envenom before needing to rupture again.

Does this account for the reduced Envenom damage if you perform it with X CP and fewer than X Deadly Poison stacks? Also, how much superior do you find 4+ finishers with Ruthlessness to be, relative to, say, not taking Ruthlessness at all? Quite a lot of builds I've looked at have skipped Ruthlessness entirely in favor of other talents.

• Aldriana · 09/21/08, 5:27 PM

I don't have good estimates on 2M Envenom/Rupture cycles, but with straight Envenom spam I have the difference between 2M and 4+ at about 90 DPS, even factoring in the fact that you will on occasion be doing Envenoms without enough poison. I may not have weighted this possibility quite strongly enough, but I don't think it's going to make 90 DPS difference. And in a Rupture cycle the difference will be larger, I suspect.

The question of course remains whether there's something better to do with the talent points in Ruthlessness; but as you can't get past the 35-point level in the tree without taking either Ruthlessness or filler, I'm inclined to say that they're generally going to be worth taking.

• Vulajin · 09/21/08, 5:36 PM

Well, the primary filler I'm looking at is Fleet Footed, useful for soloing and in case you don't have an Unholy DK (which may certainly be the case in a 10 man), and Quick Recovery, which despite its low DPS value is still a 20% increase in healing received.

• Aldriana · 09/21/08, 5:43 PM

Right... although a 10-man scenario will also affect what buffs you have and thus skew that balance as well. So far I've focused primarily on the 25-man raiding scene (i.e., assume access to all raid buffs), for which Fleet Footed will presumably be a non-issue. Similarly, the Quick Recovery buff, while nice, has minimal DPS benefit, and so far in talent analysis we've been largely neglecting survivability talents.

So, fundamentally: yes, outside of 25 mans - be it 10 mans, 5 mans, or farming - there's a plausible case for skipping Ruthlessness. But when you get to 25s, I'm pretty confident that it's something you want.

Coffin Burier · 09/21/08, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

So, fundamentally: yes, outside of 25 mans - be it 10 mans, 5 mans, or farming - there's a plausible case for skipping Ruthlessness. But when you get to 25s, I'm pretty confident that it's something you want.

In my experience, during these 2 years of TBC, I've been lovin' both Relentless Strikes, Quick Recovery and Fleet Footed as well (in my Hemo/Seal Fate spec). At the moment I should be able to keep these talents in the upcoming 3.0 patch.

With my old spec 31/0/30 I usually generated the same amount of energy a combat rogue would generate from Combat Potency (this because of more finishers, but not as much energy as a combat rogue would generate from combat potency plus ruthlessness). With Focussed Attacks assassination rogues with Relentless Attacks should finally be able to actually generate more energy then a Combat Specced rogue (if we don't consider the new change to Vitality).

Once Expertise is capped we may choose to avoid taking Quick Recovery. I guess you already know that once ERating and HRating are cappet for yellow damage, your first 2 stats to stack will become Agility and Crit Rating (I'm not joking)... and, who knows, maybe Haste Rating as well! About Fleet Footed, it became very usefull... it first became usefull at the Prince and then in every situation were an higher movement speed could help increasing dps or saving my life (at the Lurker I was usually able to run around the boss during the spit fase without jumping in the water and without losing dps... my experience ends in BT and I still love this talent... it makes my rogue just feel different). Relentless Strikes should still be a "must have" talent for raiding in 25 man istances.

I really miss Deadly Brew and Infectius Poisons... I guess we just have to wait and see. At the moment I would avoid Cut to the Chase in an Hemo spec, in favor to Dual Wield Spec and Improved SnD.

P.S.
Changed Ruthlessness with Relentless Strikes... ops! :P

gokpog · 09/21/08, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

I ran the numbers on Combat Shiv builds (23/43/5, to be specific, which appears to be the strongest combat-centric build), and they seem to be running about 10% behind Mutilate.

I was testing combat shiv builds on the ptr and found that a slice'n'dice glyph alone was enough to keep up a 5s/5r/5e cycle using a 5/51/5 build (actually I wasn't using a snd glyph but took 2 T4 from the bank). So I came back here, found the 23/43/5 build, got the new spreadsheet and played around a little.

- Full SWP gear
- Warglaive MH / BoS OH
- 23/43/5 build
- glyphs: shiv, rupture, slice'n'dice
- 2s/5r/5e cycle

This puts me 1.6% ahead of the Mutilate DPS that's predefined in the spreadsheet. Do you get similar results with naxx gear?

lolswordspec · 09/21/08, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

DW Spec: 91 DPS/Point
Precision: 31 DPS/Point
CQC: 50 DPS/Point

Relentless Strikes: 107 DPS/Point
Opportunity: 98 DPS/Point

I was leafing through some of the past posts and saw this.

DW Spec ~ 91DPS/Point
Opportunity ~ 98DPS/Point

Has anyone tested 51/3/7 build for level 70 PVE? Or are these values based solely on the level 80 gearing that has been seen?

Since Focused Attacks is now the defining talent in Mutilate builds, it seems that we need to test which stat gives a higher boost on DPS. Should mutilate rogues socket for Agility, Crit, or (now that we can) Haste?

◊ chalon · 09/21/08, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

In my estimates to date, I've found 4+ finishers to do better DPS than 2-mutilate finishers; with 5/5 SF and Ruthlessness, given typical crit rates, this means you only need to do 1 Mutilate between finishers almost 50% of the time. Meanwhile, during a 24-pt SnD, one will typically regen on the order of 300 energy between normal regen and Focused Attacks, which is sufficient for 4 Mutilates with plenty of cushion leftover for finishers and dry spells in procs. Hence, doing 4+n4+r should be totally sustainable.

However, given the 18-20-sec duration of glyphed rupture and the almost 75% chance of completing those two finishers with 3 Mutilates or less, odds are actually pretty good that this cycle will be ready to Rupture again before the previous one has worn off. Hence, I think the top cycle is actually likely to be 4+r4+n(4+n) - that is, do you a rupture and an envenom, and, depending on how procs work out, possibly squeeze in another envenom before needing to rupture again.

To back up this math, I did almost of all Naxx 10 last night, running the currently established "best DPS spec". Anyways, I had absolutely no problem maintaining a 4n/4r cycle and when I realized no one was doing armor reduction and started doing Expose Armors, I still was able to throw in a rupture here or there.

I did however encounter something that you were referring to in earlier posts. In many cases, based on crits I'd actually do a 2nd envenom before the next Rupture due to the previous Rupture being on there (running both SnD and Rupture glyphs).

Anyways, parse of the run is here, though don't let relative DPS scare you as a.) for the first 2 wings there was no major armor buff, and b.) after that I ran Expose Armor, c.) We didn't have an +AP% buff till the last wing or so. But even with those caveats I was pretty competitive damage wise, d.) Most bosses don't take into account Murder, and e.) My cycle timings were far from perfect.

ER WotLK Beta Raid History

Gear I'm currently running. I got a few of these items during the run in question. I've replaced a lot of my gear with Naxx 10 items, but I still have some slots with bad gear. Still having problems getting enchants but doing what I can:
MH: [Knife of Incision] w/ Executioner
OH: [Omen of Ruin] w/ Executioner
Ranged: [Distracting Blades]
Head: [Helm of the Vast Legions] w/ Glyph of Ferocity, Swift Skyflare (+42 AP), Accurate Huge Citrine (+6 Expertise/+6 Hit)
Neck: [Pendant of the Outcast Hero]
Shoulder: [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer] w/ Inscription of the Blade (yes not greater)
Back: [Cloak of Darkening] - No enchant
Chest: [Tunic of Dislocation] w/ Accurate Huge Citrine (+6 Ex/+6 Hit), Guardian's Shadow Crystal (+6 Ex/+9 Sta), No enchant
Wrist: [Cuffs of Dark Shadows] w/ +24 AP
Hand: [Grips of Deftness] w/ Assault - yeah I know they suck
Waist: [Blistered Belt of Decay] w/ Glinting Monarch Topaz (+8 Agi/+8 Hit)
Leg: [Leggings of Discord] w/ No Enchant
Foot: [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] w/ Cat's Swiftness, Shifting Tanzanite, Bright Crimson Spinel
Ring: [Band of the Kirin Tor]
Ring: [Kurzel's Rage]
Trinket: [Shard of Contempt]
Trinket: [Fezzik's Pocketwatch]

EDIT: Added current items per request.

BigWhil · 09/21/08, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

To back up this math, I did almost of all Naxx 10 last night, running the currently established "best DPS spec". Anyways, I had absolutely no problem maintaining a 4n/4r cycle and when I realized no one was doing armor reduction and started doing Expose Armors, I still was able to throw in a rupture here or there.

I did however encounter something that you were referring to in earlier posts. In many cases, based on crits I'd actually do a 2nd envenom before the next Rupture due to the previous Rupture being on there (running both SnD and Rupture glyphs).

Anyways, parse of the run is here, though don't let relative DPS scare you as a.) for the first 2 wings there was no major armor buff, and b.) after that I ran Expose Armor, c.) We didn't have an +AP% buff till the last wing or so. But even with those caveats I was pretty competitive damage wise, d.) Most bosses don't take into account Murder, and e.) My cycle timings were far from perfect.

ER WotLK Beta Raid History

Chalon, is there somewhere i could see what gear/stats you had for that run?
Would be interesting,

thanks in advance.

◊ chalon · 09/21/08, 11:15 PM

I'll update that post up there later tonight with the gear I'm currently running (some of which I got during the run). FWIW the fights that are after that aren't listed because my log bugged out for some reason. However I won Faerlina, died very early on Maexxana (died to webbing ftl), and Sapphiron I was up high on the meters. KT I was pretty high too but then the server came down :P.

ant1pathy · 09/22/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Nerio

Doing 4-5 point Ruptures followed by 4-5 envenoms and also renewing hfb, I still find myself with a handful of time to let my energy fill a bit before I renew the slice and dice with an evenom. I'm using a 1.5 speed mh and 1.4 speed oh so I'm getting a few more crits in than say a 1.8 and 1.5, but even with 1-2 less crits per 10 or so seconds I don't see it being an issue. I also usually take 5/5 relentless strikes which helps a lot. I do not have the glyph so there's even more room in which to work with.

This was holding up for me as well, and I was using 1.8/1.7 speed from when I copied my Rogue over for it. I aimed for 5r, and Envenom whenever I needed to refresh SnD. I rarely had to do anything less than a 5 point though, as 2xMuti with 5/5 SF is ~90% 5 points with my crit rate.

Waldar · 09/22/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier

With my old spec 31/0/30 I usually generated the same amount of energy a combat rogue would generate from Combat Potency (this because of more finishers, but not as much energy as a combat rogue would generate from combat potency plus ruthlessness). With Focussed Attacks assassination rogues with Ruthlessness should finally be able to actually generate more energy then a Combat Specced rogue (if we don't consider the new change to Vitality).

I think you're confusing ruthlessness and relentless strikes.

Phantomine · 09/22/08, 9:31 AM

Has anyone compared the new combat talents to a new mutilate build yet?

combat fist/sword vs combat sword vs mutilate

As i would really, really appreciate it if i could stay combat with either a swords only or a fist/sword hybrid build without having to carry the little red lantern at the low end of rogue raid dps ...

Celfydd · 09/22/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Lets see, 340 haste rating for 8 seconds every 2 minutes works out to 340/15 = 22.7 average haste rating. Which is...potentially better than the existing enchants (15 expertise, 20 agi, or 32 AP), but if so, not by very much. It's certainly not in the same league as the other profession bonuses. And while Goggles (or whatever) may help, the other professions may get items as well. So I think it's safe to say that there's insufficient evidence to believe that Engineering will be useful in PvE - though of course, it's still quite good for PvP.

These are the goggles as they've currently been specced, for what it's worth:
[Weakness Spectralizers]

There is an attack power trinket but its main value is in stamina and the attack power benefit is lacklustre:
[Sonic Booster]

Coffin Burier · 09/22/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Waldar

I think you're confusing ruthlessness and relentless strikes.

Thank you for the correction. I've edited my post.

My aim was just to let you know how fun and useful Fleet Footed can be... I just hope we'll have points for that filler.

As I'm not in the Beta and I can't test any new spec, has anyone tested 50/0/21 (Hemo/Cut to the Chase) and 42/7/22 (Hemo/Focussed Attacks/DWS)? Thank you.

Cibeles · 09/22/08, 12:43 PM

I have a question... in raids we will still have WF on the MH but now IP on the OH? Or with this new spec we need to use DP on the MH in raids too?

Phantomine · 09/22/08, 12:48 PM

You will have poison on both weapons, as WF will become a general 16-20% haste-buff

Coffin Burier · 09/22/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cibeles

I have a question... in raids we will still have WF on the MH but now IP on the OH? Or with this new spec we need to use DP on the MH in raids too?

WF Totem shuold be a 20% haste rating now and not weapon buff anymore. This should allow rogue to use IP main and DP off. I'm not the best source for an answear, so wait for more precise informations from whos are in the beta.

Cibeles · 09/22/08, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Phantomine

You will have poison on both weapons, as WF will become a general 16-20% haste-buff

Oh thats true! Tx.

Morghulis · 09/22/08, 1:00 PM

Yes, but it requires Engineering to be used, so I think it can be considered as a perk of the profession.

Risuchan · 09/22/08, 2:27 PM

Is this build basically combat swords to the next level?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

If there are mistakes with it, please let me know. I am trying to better myself.

• Feist-Mok · 09/22/08, 2:54 PM

More or less.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

Serrated Blades > Lethality

no reason not to max aggression

and parry riposte is probably a better choice than dodge. More avoidance and a better farming talent for the same point investment.

Cybelirrae · 09/22/08, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Risuchan

Is this build basically combat swords to the next level?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

If there are mistakes with it, please let me know. I am trying to better myself.

I don't think you want to place the points precisely as you have them. I think a typical build including lethality would look more like this (you could place the improved sprint points into Lightning Reflexes if Blizzard actually buffs it to have some DPS-increasing effect):

Pure Combat Swords

or if you want to pick up Serrated Blades:

Combat Swords with Serrated Blades