A raid leader that tells someone to switch to a spec they're not used to playing just because it's been theorycrafted to do 1% more average personal damage than the spec they're used to playing is a bad raid leader. That person will probably be less effective with the "more optimal" spec just due to the fact that they're not used to playing that spec. Not to mention the fact that no amount of theorycrafting is going to account for every single variable present in real-world gameplay (especially the human factors), so you can't rely on theorycrafting to tell you exactly how effective those two builds are going to be with that kind of precision.
I'm not talking down on theorycrafting at all, mind you. It's an incredibly useful tool if it's used correctly and you understand its limitations. But some people seem to use it as a crutch, and think it's a more accurate representation of real gameplay than it really is. If you're using it in the way that the hypothetical raid leader above uses it, you're doing it wrong.
Unless I'm mistaken, Aldriana's quoted point in VeeV's post was about farming benefits with combat versus mutilate rather than the raid benefits of both specs.
A raid leader that tells someone to switch to a spec they're not used to playing just because it's been theorycrafted to do 1% more average personal damage than the spec they're used to playing is a bad raid leader. That person will probably be less effective with the "more optimal" spec just due to the fact that they're not used to playing that spec. Not to mention the fact that no amount of theorycrafting is going to account for every single variable present in real-world gameplay (especially the human factors), so you can't rely on theorycrafting to tell you exactly how effective those two builds are going to be with that kind of precision.
I'm not talking down on theorycrafting at all, mind you. It's an incredibly useful tool if it's used correctly and you understand its limitations. But some people seem to use it as a crutch, and think it's a more accurate representation of real gameplay than it really is. If you're using it in the way that the hypothetical raid leader above uses it, you're doing it wrong.
Perhaps you are missing several things here.
- Raiding guilds often have "be willing to respecc to a given build as and when Raids require it" as a prerequisite for recruitment.
- A Raid Leader can and will ask players to respec to fulfill a given role because the encounters demand it. The player should be skilled enough to be able to cope with that or they may sit out of some raids.
- A good Raid Leader will also recognise the need for things like a Raid wide (de)buff and will ask for it to be available from those who can provide it.
- Raiding is not about personal DPS even for Rogues anymore. If you need a Master Poisoner or a Savage Combat Rogue because that will buff Raid DPS then that is what will be asked for.
- You, as a player, should be exploring different builds and play styles so you are prepared for when you need to actually use those builds and a particular playstyle. That is, if you want to play on the bleeding edge or be competetive in your Guild for Raid places.
Theorycrafting is by no means a crutch, in fact I am not at all sure what you mean by that.
Theorycraft gives very deep insights into the way the game works, assuming that the hypotheses are close to the truth and that the maths is correct. Given the standard of Theorycrafting here this is often the case.
Without such insights it would be harder to perform at ones best, not impossible just harder.
With the aid of the Spreadsheets available here you are in a position of being able to check observed results (your combat log on WWS or through an AddOn like Recount) against expected results.
Without the Theorycrafting any such analysis of your performance would be impossible.
If you take pride in your performance you use these tools to grab that extra .1% DPS never mind 1%. Regardless of whether your Raid Leader tells you to or not.
This is a roguecraft spreadsheet comparison of an Assasination based build using Mutilate as combo point builder against Combat based builds using Shiv or Sinister Strike. The Combat builds use the Warglaive Set as weapons, Mutilate Crux of the Apocalypse and Shiv of Exsanguination, gear is the Sunwell sample gear.
The "Mutilate base":
Build: 51/13/7 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Mutilate
Cycle: 4+r/4+e (CttC)
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Sinister Strike
DPS: 3702
This build has 2 points in tier 5 put into utility/minor DPS talents that could be spent on Murder increasing your DPS on fights affected by Murder even more (+5.7%).
Let's get to the Combat based builds using Sinister Strike:
Build: 20/51/0 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Sinister Strike
Cycle: 2s/5r
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Sinister Strike
DPS: 3265 (- 11,8%)
Build: 7/51/13 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Sinister Strike
Cycle: 2s/5r
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Sinister Strike
DPS: 3286 (-11,2%)
The cycle is somehow off. 1s/5r has a 100% SnD uptime, but 2s/5r provides better DPS. This seems to come from the better use of Rupture in the 2s cycle. I think we would effectively do a 1s/5r/1s/5e cycle to avoid or not being able to refresh Rupture due to an AP trinket or procs of some kind.
Ok, here are the Combat based builds using Shiv:
Build: 20/51/0 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Shiv
Cycle: 3s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Shiv
DPS: 3623 (-2,1%)
Build: 7/51/13 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Shiv
Cycle: 3s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Shiv
DPS: 3658 (-1,2%)
Shiv performs almost 10% better than Sinister Strike as combo point builder using the exact same build, only adjusting the cycle and one glyph. This may change with better weapons and gear, but closing a 10% gap with scaling instant poison seems very much.
At last, the probably best Combat build of the current beta build:
Build: 23/43/5 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Shiv
Cycle: 2s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Shiv
DPS: 3786 (+2,3%)
Combat Shiv is slightly outperforming Mutilate on paper against bosses not affected by Murder.
Conclusion:
The Combat tree as it is, is not so bad, it's Sinister Strike as combo point builder. If it's not intended that Combat uses Shiv as combo point builder, Sinister Strike needs a serious look (or Shiv/instant poison a change). At the moment it is clearly inferior to Shiv, providing worse combo point generation leading to worse cycles. The 25% better Sinister Strike DPS compared to Shiv DPS is easily made up by Poison DPS (and Finisher DPS) in Shiv builds. That's just another example how well instant poison is performing at the moment.
Keep in mind that this comparison was done is by using Level 70 gear (although best of the best) and Level 80 builds. I would really like to know if this changes with Naxxramas gear.
(Please don't be to harsh on my spelling/grammar, I'm not a native speaker.)
This is a roguecraft spreadsheet comparison...[/size]
Is this (beta) spreasheet available or you've just created it? I didn't find any link neither in the last pages, nor in the first few pages, but I've seen it mentioned at least twice. Thank you.
P.S.
I was searching informations about Trauma and the warrior arms debuff on bosses. Can you guys confirm that it doesn't stack with Mangle's bleeding debuff? Thank you.
Last edited by Coffin Burier : 09/23/08 at 8:19 AM.
- Raiding guilds often have "be willing to respecc to a given build as and when Raids require it" as a prerequisite for recruitment.
- A Raid Leader can and will ask players to respec to fulfill a given role because the encounters demand it. The player should be skilled enough to be able to cope with that or they may sit out of some raids.
- A good Raid Leader will also recognise the need for things like a Raid wide (de)buff and will ask for it to be available from those who can provide it.
- Raiding is not about personal DPS even for Rogues anymore. If you need a Master Poisoner or a Savage Combat Rogue because that will buff Raid DPS then that is what will be asked for.
- You, as a player, should be exploring different builds and play styles so you are prepared for when you need to actually use those builds and a particular playstyle. That is, if you want to play on the bleeding edge or be competetive in your Guild for Raid places.
Theorycrafting is by no means a crutch, in fact I am not at all sure what you mean by that.
Theorycraft gives very deep insights into the way the game works, assuming that the hypotheses are close to the truth and that the maths is correct. Given the standard of Theorycrafting here this is often the case.
Without such insights it would be harder to perform at ones best, not impossible just harder.
With the aid of the Spreadsheets available here you are in a position of being able to check observed results (your combat log on WWS or through an AddOn like Recount) against expected results.
Without the Theorycrafting any such analysis of your performance would be impossible.
If you take pride in your performance you use these tools to grab that extra .1% DPS never mind 1%. Regardless of whether your Raid Leader tells you to or not.
I think you missed the point of my post, because I agree with every single point you've made here, with one minor situational exception to the last one. I was specifically replying to VeeV's post where he said: If Combat and Mutilate will be "almost up to par" Raidleaders/Classleaders will ask their rogues to use the spec for the most possible damage. It doesnt really matter if its 5% behind or 1% behind, DPS is what our job is and we will be pigeonholed into the "Best DPS Spec in WotLK".
I recognize the value of theorycrafting, as I said in the post you replied to. However, there is no way a spreadsheet is going to represent real-world gameplay performance between two very different specs and play styles down to less than 1% accuracy. A 5% difference will be very noticeable and can be backed up with real-world gameplay performance. A 1% difference is going to be buried in the RNG and affected by random human factors to the point where it won't even matter.
Now, when it comes to things like gearing, deciding whether you should gem your gear with agility or attack power, for example, or choosing specific talents within a build, theorycrafting CAN be used decide which one will be more benefitial down to that level of accuracy.
This is, of course, assuming that they manage to get the builds that close in damage, which I'll admit is a pretty big assumption.
Last edited by KikassAssassin : 09/23/08 at 8:15 AM.
Is this (beta) spreasheet available or you've just created it? I didn't find any link in the last pages, but I've seen it mentioned at least twice. Thank you.
A 1% difference is going to be buried in the RNG and affected by random human factors to the point where it won't even matter.
Of course a 1% difference is way outperformed by the RNG or other factors, but that is valid for each of those builds.
If you play just as good with both specs, and you really are into min/maxing, the only deciding factor then IS this 1% theoretical difference.
I think you missed the point of my post, because I agree with every single point you've made here, with one minor situational exception to the last one. I was specifically replying to VeeV's post where he said: If Combat and Mutilate will be "almost up to par" Raidleaders/Classleaders will ask their rogues to use the spec for the most possible damage. It doesnt really matter if its 5% behind or 1% behind, DPS is what our job is and we will be pigeonholed into the "Best DPS Spec in WotLK".
To stress the point here somewhat: as a Rogue you will be a source of Raid wide (de)buffs in the future.
As the raw DPS builds will be fairly similar in (real) terms of personal DPS the difference after that is what you can bring to the Raid.
We are less likely to be pigeonholed into cookie cutter specs than ever before, simply because the variety of Raid viable specs means that you will be better off bringing a variety of different rogues to your Raids. Part of the price for speccing for those Raid wide talents could well be a drop in personal DPS however the net effect will be an increase in Raid DPS, which is more important.
A large part of the discussion in this Thread has been about how (de)buff stacking will affect us and how Rogues can contribute to overal Raid DPS performance.
Both you and VeeV seem to have either glossed over the previous discussion or not bothered to read it. Either way, had you done so neither of you would have made the statements you made.
To stress the point here somewhat: as a Rogue you will be a source of Raid wide (de)buffs in the future.
As the raw DPS builds will be fairly similar in (real) terms of personal DPS the difference after that is what you can bring to the Raid.
We are less likely to be pigeonholed into cookie cutter specs than ever before, simply because the variety of Raid viable specs means that you will be better off bringing a variety of different rogues to your Raids. Part of the price for speccing for those Raid wide talents could well be a drop in personal DPS however the net effect will be an increase in Raid DPS, which is more important.
A large part of the discussion in this Thread has been about how (de)buff stacking will affect us and how Rogues can contribute to overal Raid DPS performance.
Both you and VeeV seem to have either glossed over the previous discussion or not bothered to read it. Either way, had you done so neither of you would have made the statements you made.
I should have been more clear that I was replying specifically to VeeV. The points you're making, and the other points that have been made in this thread, are all good ones, and I don't think anything I've said contradicts them (in fact, it supports them, even if I was coming at it from a different angle). Remember, also, that a decent portion of the raid isn't going to need to provide these (de)buffs, due to overlap with other raid members that provide the same (de)buff schools. Since a Rogue being taken as an "extra" DPS spot after all the necessary buffs have been supplied is the only scenario where VeeV's post would have made any sense, that's the assumption I made in my reply to him.
I was too non-specific and came off as more confrontational than I intended to be in that first post, so I apologize for the confusion.
Originally Posted by sp00n
Of course a 1% difference is way outperformed by the RNG or other factors, but that is valid for each of those builds.
If you play just as good with both specs, and you really are into min/maxing, the only deciding factor then IS this 1% theoretical difference.
Fair enough, and I'm well aware that there are a lot people who will spec a certain way specifically to try to get that theoretical 1%, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if the difference is that small, I don't think there will (or should, anyway) be so many people who will obsess over it that the vast majority of Rogues would be forced to be pigeonholed into a single raiding spec if the damage between them was that close, which is what VeeV seemed to be saying. If raid leaders force their Rogues to spec a certain way specifically because one build was theorycrafted to do 1% more damage, then that raid leader is being extremely unfair.
When it comes down to that insignificant a theoretical difference in DPS between two very different playstyles, I think more people will be inclined to use the one that they have more fun playing with. There's a big difference between that and the decision between gemming your gear with different stats, or choosing one specific DPS talent over another, because that doesn't affect the way you play at all--it's purely a factor of what quantitatively does the most DPS, which I think everyone here can agree is perfectly acceptable to obsess over.
This is a roguecraft spreadsheet comparison of an Assasination based build using Mutilate as combo point builder against Combat based builds using Shiv or Sinister Strike. The Combat builds use the Warglaive Set as weapons, Mutilate Crux of the Apocalypse and Shiv of Exsanguination, gear is the Sunwell sample gear.
I was playing around a bit what would happen if Relentless Strikes was a passive talent (I already received an infraction for me complaining about the change into Subtley, so don't bother please).
I've found that a combat build would benefit more from such a change than Mutilate would, basically because Combat then would be able to invest more points in the DPS-heavy Assassination tree instead of going the filler route in Subtley to reach Serrated Blades.
However, this change would make a Shiv build even more broken (yes, a build based on an utility based off hand attack doesn't sound right to me), being more than 500 DPS in front of a 'normal' combat build.
The same gear as in gokpog's posting was used (Warglaives, standard Sunwell gear set).
Mutilate:
Could complete Close Quarter Combat and have 3 spare points for Murder/Master Poisoner/other.
I see you've used two slow daggers for Mutilate, can you please make the same test with one (or even two) fast daggers?
Changing the OH Dagger to the 1.4 speed [Brutal Gladiator's Shiv] increases its damage output from 3702 to 3813 DPS, setting it in front of Combat Shiv again. Replacing the MH dagger as well resulted in a slight DPS loss, so I didn't change it.
However, if RS was a passive talent, Shiv would pull ahead again (3880 with a passive RS talent for Mutilate vs. 3932 Shiv).
I see you've used two slow daggers for Mutilate, can you please make the same test with one (or even two) fast daggers?
Yes, a fast offhand would improve the DPS. I didn't think of that and just used the sample gear from the spreadsheet. For example Edge of Oppression offers a 2.7% DPS increase over the Shiv of Exsang... thanks to a 16.3% increase in Poison DPS. By changing Deadly Brew, Blizzard did the first step away from the "find the fastest two daggers possible" issue, now they may need to change Instant Poison to address this problem for the offhand. I like Vulajin idea of making Instant Poison do damage equal to your your paper doll weapon damage. It would scale and remove the need for fast offhand weapons.
At last, the probably best Combat build of the current beta build:
Build: 23/43/5 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combo point builder: Shiv
Cycle: 2s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture, Slice and Dice, Shiv
DPS: 3786 (+2,3%)
Combat Shiv is slightly outperforming Mutilate on paper against bosses not affected by Murder.
I've used the Roguecraft LK 0.2.6 Spreadsheet using my equip for three different specs (you can check it on WoW Armory, Indidh - Hakkar EU): the one I've just quoted, the mutilate one you've used in your tests and mine (41/7/23 Hemo/Seal Fate). I've just changed few things from spec to spec: I used a Vengeful G. Shanker instead of the V. G. Slicer for the Mutilate Spec. I've used a V. G. Quickblade instead of the Traker's Blade and resocketed Hit Rating instead of Crit Rating for the Combat Sword Spec. Finally, I used an Hemo Glyph for the Hemo/Seal Fate spec and the boss wasn't affected by Murderer.
The results:
3492 dps with 51/13/7
3173 dps with 23/43/5
3007 dps with 41/7/23 (including 371 dps from the Hemo Debuff)
Conclusions? My conclusion is that it will be fun sucking from any other rogue while levelling with my crazy spec to lv 80. I've also noticed how effective the Crit Rating I've stacked on my equip can be in a Mutilate spec. You if have time, I suggest you to try regemming for Crit Rating instead of Hit Rating and see if you obtain the same results. Using a fast off-hand weapon healped making the difference between Mutilate and Shiv spec as well (there are about 90 dps between the V.G. Shiv and the V.G. Mutilator).
I hope this can be usuful to the discussion.
Last edited by Coffin Burier : 09/23/08 at 11:20 AM.
Fair enough, and I'm well aware that there are a lot people who will spec a certain way specifically to try to get that theoretical 1%, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if the difference is that small, I don't think there will (or should, anyway) be so many people who will obsess over it that the vast majority of Rogues would be forced to be pigeonholed into a single raiding spec if the damage between them was that close, which is what VeeV seemed to be saying. If raid leaders force their Rogues to spec a certain way specifically because one build was theorycrafted to do 1% more damage, then that raid leader is being extremely unfair.
When it comes down to that insignificant a theoretical difference in DPS between two very different playstyles, I think more people will be inclined to use the one that they have more fun playing with. There's a big difference between that and the decision between gemming your gear with different stats, or choosing one specific DPS talent over another, because that doesn't affect the way you play at all--it's purely a factor of what quantitatively does the most DPS, which I think everyone here can agree is perfectly acceptable to obsess over.
I agree with you here. Way back when, I was in a guild where the raid leader micromanaged everything, forced players to spec certain ways, etc, etc, but that wasn't at all addressing the main reasons why we were wiping on encounters. Eventually I joined the top guild on the server, and in there we had one rogue who raided naxx with a sub spec.
Sure his spec wasn't optimal, but on progress encounters, he would often stay alive longer than anyone else since he knew how to use his cd's well, and he'd often pull out near top dps on first kills and the like. Our raid leader never fretted about it because he knew the rogue knew how to play his class well, and would do the best he could despite a less than optimal pure dps spec.
Our raid leader never fretted about it because he knew the rogue knew how to play his class well, and would do the best he could despite a less than optimal pure dps spec.
I definetely agree with you. I find myself in the same situation of your mate. My class master and raid leaders never complained about my spec and I've repaid them with almost always top three dps results. I have to admit that Elitist Jerks community and the various Rogue Spreadsheet really helped out squeezing all the possible dps from my rogue. Thank you guys! ^_^
I agree with you here. Way back when, I was in a guild where the raid leader micromanaged everything, forced players to spec certain ways, etc, etc, but that wasn't at all addressing the main reasons why we were wiping on encounters. Eventually I joined the top guild on the server, and in there we had one rogue who raided naxx with a sub spec.
Sure his spec wasn't optimal, but on progress encounters, he would often stay alive longer than anyone else since he knew how to use his cd's well, and he'd often pull out near top dps on first kills and the like. Our raid leader never fretted about it because he knew the rogue knew how to play his class well, and would do the best he could despite a less than optimal pure dps spec.
That's not the point. If you're actually interested in progression, total Raid DPS, and min-maxing, you wouldn't spec Subtlety. The point of theorycrafting and min-maxing is to improve raid performance. Assuming the rogue knew what he was doing he would not be speccing Sub, and was actively hurting overall raid damage by doing so.
This is the same line of thinking that says, Nihilum/SK-Gaming/XYZ's rogues spec/gear a certain way, so that must be the best. Take nothing away from those rogues, they a) have a lot of time on their hands and b) are clearly excellent players, but they are not interested in complete min-maxing and just because their guild is the best/nearly the best doesn't make their gear and spec the also the best. What matters is what our math tells us, because empirical evidence is inherently flawed from random variation. Furthermore the differences between specs, whether 5% or 1% as indicated by the spreadsheets, may be obscured by random variation in (relatively) short sample sizes but over an infinite duration anecdotal evidence would back up those numbers.
To add something a little more constructive to the discussion, I find it hardly likely that Blizzard intends Shiv to not only become the most powerful combo point builder (for a Combat Spec), and furthermore that we should not be speccing into any of the 51-point talents. The tri-spec Shiv build brings 2.3-Hemo to mind: Blizzard didn't like the fact that we were not using the deep talents of any tree and nerfed the build quite quickly. It feels like Blizzard's design intention for Shiv has always been as more of utility ability (this didn't really bear itself out in PvE, but certainly in PvP) rather than a primary damaging attack.
Last edited by Arindelest : 09/23/08 at 11:39 AM.
Reason: Spelling
Sure his spec wasn't optimal, but on progress encounters, he would often stay alive longer than anyone else since he knew how to use his cd's well, and he'd often pull out near top dps on first kills and the like. Our raid leader never fretted about it because he knew the rogue knew how to play his class well, and would do the best he could despite a less than optimal pure dps spec.
As a raid leader I would not be to worried about the suboptimally speced rogue that is pulling 'near top DPS on first kills and the like.' I would most certainly freet over the optimally speced rogues they were competeing with evenly though. That playing field isn't level so equal performance from a sub-optimal spec means the optimally speced rogues are doing something wrong.
It really boils down to your recruiting pool. If a guild has the noteriety and reputation required for picking applicants instead of having applicants pick them that guild can, and almost certinaly will, require optimal specing from every raider reguardless of player preferences. In that situation if someone isn't willing to respec for 1% DPS there's a half dozen applicants with equal skill willing to do so. Maybe your guild can't afford to be this picky with applicants, I know none of the guild I've ever been in could be, but some guilds most certainly can.
That's not the point. If you're actually interested in progression, total Raid DPS, and min-maxing, you wouldn't spec Subtlety. The point of theorycrafting and min-maxing is to improve raid performance. Assuming the rogue knew what he was doing he would not be speccing Sub, and was actively hurting overall raid damage by doing so.
This is the same line of thinking that says, Nihilum/SK-Gaming/XYZ's rogues spec/gear a certain way, so that must be the best. Take nothing away from those rogues, they a) have a lot of time on their hands and b) are clearly excellent players, but they are not interested in complete min-maxing and just because their guild is the best/nearly the best doesn't make their gear and spec the also the best. What matters is what our math tells us, because empirical evidence is inherently flawed from random variation. Furthermore the differences between specs, whether 5% or 1% as indicated by the spreadsheets, may be obscured by random variation in (relatively) short sample sizes but over an infinite duration anecdotal evidence would back up those numbers.
To add something a little more constructive to the discussion, I find it hardly likely that Blizzard intends Shiv to not only become the most powerful combo point builder (for a Combat Spec), and furthermore that we should not be speccing into any of the 51-point talents. The tri-spec Shiv build brings 2.3-Hemo to mind: Blizzard didn't like the fact that we were not using the deep talents of any tree and nerfed the build quite quickly. It feels like Blizzard's design intention for Shiv has always been as more of utility ability (this didn't really bear itself out in PvE, but certainly in PvP) rather than a primary damaging attack.
I definitely agree with you, as I've been heavily into theorycrafting myself, hence why I post here. I was just trying to support the previous statement that a raid leader flipping out because someone is using a spec with 1% worse dps is a silly thing to worry about. I wasn't trying to say that sub was the best raiding spec either, clearly it wasn't, just that there are other factors that one can consider instead of just pure theorycraft, such that chastising someone for not strictly following theorycraft is silly.
Obviously we can't analyze and quantify the intangible benefits, so there's no point theorycrafting about them, but that doesn't mean a raid leader should completely dismiss and forbid a certain spec if the player using it can perform well with it.
Anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread any more. I definitely agree about shiv specs seeming unintended. I remember some chatter about a shiv spec back when shiv first came out, but ss just scaled better. We'll have to see how that compares now since poisons scale with ap, but there will like be a change needed if it doesn't improve.
Taking a closer look at the spreadsheet, the DPS contribution from Shiv itself doesn't even match with the build's lead in comparison to a SS build. Meaning, even with the damage component completely removed from Shiv, it would still pull ahead of Sinister Strike (445 DPS through Shiv / 500 DPS ahead).
Removing the Shiv Glyph itself neither does place Shiv behind SS.
So, we need a twofold solution:
a) buff combat build, but I think we all agree on this issue and
b) change the way Shiv is working. Either increase its energy consumption and/or remove the Shiv glyph or - which currently is my favorite as it is quick and simple - exclude Instant Poison from profiting of Shiv's 100% poison application.
Increasing Shiv's energy consumption would contradict its utility, but so does Instant Poision. Instant Poison is no utility, it's pure damage.
We can simulate this by selecting Deadly Poison on off hand and Instant on main hand. The DPS drops to 3011; still quite much, enough to not render it completely useless, but about 9% behind a SS combat build, which seems to be more in line.
I've tested both specs on PTR and i find combat better for grinding easily. BF for multiple targets , AR for a good boost on named/elites when needed , more talents to stay alive (sprint, evasion, parry) and riposte.
I'm not telling it's faster , i think mutilate allows the mobs to go down faster, but it's also poison dependant whereas using combat you can use what you like with poisons.
That's not the point. If you're actually interested in progression, total Raid DPS, and min-maxing, you wouldn't spec Subtlety. The point of theorycrafting and min-maxing is to improve raid performance. Assuming the rogue knew what he was doing he would not be speccing Sub, and was actively hurting overall raid damage by doing so.
I agree and disagree with you. There are situations where a player may be playing a sub-optimal spec but still performs better than most or all of the other dps in the raid. If this is the case, is it really the sub-optimal spec you have to worry about? As has been mentioned, some guilds can afford to be picky enough in recruiting that they never have anyone playing those types of specs in a raid situation. Either you min/max, or you dont get in to the guild or raid. But for the many other guilds that cant do that, looking at the spec and gear choices of people who are clearly underperforming is probably more important than telling the sub rogue who is in the top 3 to respec because its not optimal for raiding.
I've tested both specs on PTR and i find combat better for grinding easily. BF for multiple targets , AR for a good boost on named/elites when needed , more talents to stay alive (sprint, evasion, parry) and riposte.
I'm not telling it's faster , i think mutilate allows the mobs to go down faster, but it's also poison dependant whereas using combat you can use what you like with poisons.
Still both are fine.
I'm leveling now to 70, did 60-65 as mutilate, then specced combat. The biggest annoyance I had with mutilate was the reliance on poisons, either the dramatically reduced dps on poison immune mobs(elementals), or the chance that deadly wouldn't proc before cs wears off. I definitely had to eat less as mutilate, since most mobs would die in stunlock, but that would likely change in the higher levels unless you run instances to keep the gear level up.
Fighting multiple mobs should be easier in wrath as well with the directional constraint removed, so I'll likely go with mutilate to level to 80 since I prefer the play style more and I'll be leveling with a group.
09/23/08, 7:14 AM
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