Cybelirrae

I think buffing combat, and perhaps buffing Sinister Strike's chance to apply the poison on your mainhand weapon is the way to go. Any change to shiv's energy cost or chance to apply instant poison would hurt rogues in pvp a great deal.

 

Leto

Just as a reference, we were top on our server, and top 40 U.S. if I recall, so recruitment wasn't an issue, and the other rogues weren't under performing per se, we just weren't surviving as long while learning a fight since we didn't have the fleixility in options such as a second sprint, second vanish, second evasion. Once we were all comfortable with the fights we outdmged him eaisly.

My main point was just using that as an example in an attitude difference between the raid leaders, as one was nitpicking the specs, while he wasn't focusing on more important things such as strategy, etc. My memory could also be shoddy as that was two years ago.

Rogue at heart.

 

tetracycloide

There are a number of ways to adjust shiv so it cannot be used as a mainline attack in a raid DPS cycle:

• lower the proc rate or damage of instant poison
• increase energy cost of shiv
• add a cooldown to shiv of <=10 secs
• remove the awards 1 CP from shiv
• increase opportunity cost of shiv by buffing other CP generators
• remove shiv attacks from eligability for combat potency and/or focused attacks

Still, what it all boils down to in the end is what DPS can be expected from each build after the DPS sweaps are finished. If shiv, SS, and mutilate are all within 0-2% DPS of each other assuming optimaized builds/gear for each it really doesn't matter that shiv is a DPS ability.

My vanity is justified.

 

Rug

One thing to keep in mind with the estimated Shiv Combat build is that using the Warglaive set gives it about a 80-100 dps boost from the set proc alone. A more fair comparison would be Muramasa & Blade of Savagery.

 

Neverest

It is true that some people can do better dps with a less optimal build, this is skill and preference, but not our goal here in theorycraft. We are here to test and discover best obtainable dps build, we give people hope to aim for the best, whether or not most of them have the skill for it is their concern.

Competition is common in good guild applications, and for raid leader ask for best possible dps spec is normal, raid leader can and will hope for the best of their applicants. It's thus natural for guild leader to ask for your best base on trustworthy source of theorycraft such as Elitejerks.

Skill is something u can't measure in one glance, and competition in best guild is fierce, they might replace u if u can't meet their demand, but hey, let's just think of this as a form of "natural selection" then, no point be upset about it. If u don't like it, leave for another guild, find a spec and a guild u like, and have fun, maybe that is the most important for u instead of aiming for best raid progression.

In conclusion, we here at elitejerks do theorycraft, increase your knowledge. Our goal is, once u read our posts, maybe u don't have the skill to do the best dps, but u can't say u don't know what are the optimal builds. U can say u can't do it, but u can't say u don't know about it. ^_^

 

Arindelest

If Blizzard is interested in adjusting Shiv (and not changing mechanics too much), it's probably important to note how it got into this imbalanced state in the first place.

Shiv was designed with Pre-3.0 poisons in mind as an ability that did not do as much damage or scale as well as a Sinister Strike.

If poison damage is to remain a significant component of our DPS than we cannot reduce poison damage to adjust Shiv. Likewise, any change in the cooldown (as much as this seems like a nice change in that it rewards a bit more skillful play) and chance to proc poisons (particularly the latter) would have large PvP ramifications. Some sort of nerf to Shiv's straight-up damage (perhaps removing it) and a buff to Sinister Strike (either with talents, glyphs, or through the ability itself) would seem reasonable.

 

Andeh

I think that your last two suggestions are probably the most realistic, since they don't penalize the utility factor of Shiv or reduce the effectiveness of IP to other builds.

They could also change the Shiv glyph to "Reduces the energy cost of Shiv by 5 when applying Crippling, Wound, or Mind-Numbing Poison." That would allow it to retain its current functionality, but prevent it from being abused for a Shiv PvE build.

 

Cally

Sub-optimal specs performing well in a raid usually comes about when the person is overgeared as compared to the rest of the raid or the rest of the raid's performance is mediocre at best. If either one or both of the problems is fixed, that person's dps performance will diminish and eventually be surpassed just because that person has voluntarily placed on ceiling on their dps.

One sub-optimal spec may be fine in a raid and may allow guilds to progress but it sends a wrong message if several raid members start speccing in less than ideal raid specs. The cumulative effect may be that raid dps decreases by 3-5% just because several raid members decided that 1% isn't that much of difference to their personal dps. So, in fact, the raid may need to overcome that 3-5% theoretical difference every pull through RNG, leading to more wipes and more time spent downing a boss.

In short, raid leaders sometimes are more stringent on specs just so that they don't HAVE to worry about that 3-5% theoretical raid dps difference and spend more time worrying about strategy and execution. Optimal specs are one of the few things that a raid leader CAN control before a pull.

 

Leto

Is there any logical situation to use shiv to proc instant poison aside from the extra dmg, in either pve or pvp? It seems that would be the most elegant solution, to just not allow shiv to proc instant poison, if the goal is to remove the viability of a shiv/instant poison highest dps build.

Rogue at heart.

 

AeonNightmare

Ok, i've been trying to keep up with most of the rogue changes on and off, and I like most of what I see, though I have a couple questions.

Most new leather that we see doesn't have as much hit rating as we required in TBC, do we know if we will still be stacking/gemming hit rating like we did before, or has another stat stepped into its place such as crit rating?

The move up vigor up to teir 3 seems like a good one, but to others, that extra 10 energy isn't worth it, Any reason for this?

 

Chack

I think the only good fixes to the shiv's build power is one of these:

- Scale IP damage to weapon speed
- Give shiv only a +50% chance to proc poison (so the pvp poisons are at 100%)
- exclude IP from shiv
- raise opportunity cost of shiv by making SS as combo-generator more desireable

 

◊ Shaker

I'm not sure why everyone is so set on nerfing shiv - combat is behind assassination, and shiv is ahead of SS - are we all just so stuck on using SS that moving the shiv button to '2' and paying a bit more attention to offhand upgrades over mainhand ones is so awful?

Also, has anyone tried using a fast mainhand weapon with a shiv build, since you're not using it for instant attacks? This should decrease sword spec proc damage, but increase poison damage contribution from the mainhand, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be an increase in dps.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

◊ chalon

The value of the rating stats in general are down due to the almost 2x amount required to achieve the same percentage values. The previous thought on this was hit rating until the spell hit cap (about ~220ish assuming precision and raid buffs), and after that AP/agi are better bets per stat itemization points. Hit rating costs too much in itemization relative to those stats. This analysis however was done prior to the most recent changes, so it may be a bit different now (esp wrt to Focused Attacks).

Vigor is often seen as unappealing because it really only benefits you in fights where you are going to energy cap--which there are boss fights like this, but not that many. Otherwise it's only 10 additional energy for the duration of the fight. Now that doesn't necessarily make it worthless, especially if you consider a lot of fights in succession where you are going to energy cap (like on trash). However, for fights like Patchwerk that 1 talent point is likely better spent elsewhere.

Well, it's moreso the likely fact that Shiv was never intended to be a primary CP generator. It was always intended to be a PvP talent (and now with Anasthetic dispelling enrage, does have some PvE utility viability). Any behavior of it as a primary CP generator is likely unintended on Blizzard's part, which thus means they are going to change it in some way.

EDIT: Added reply to Shaker.

 

Krollin

There are a couple of others.

• Make Shiv deal no weapon damage, just apply the poison
• Above would remove weapon crits
• No "instant" damage portion of poison application can crit.

Shiv would then only be useful for applying poison and quick CP's.

 

Leto

Good point about the difference exacerbating with multiple people following suit. The outgearing was one of the reasons that rogue performed competitively, since he had 100% raid attendance since the guild's inception, he had first pick of gear generally.

Rogue at heart.

 

jdpowers19

This is correct and I agree with you. It also depends on the degree to which the spec is 'sub-optimal'. Mutilate/Combat does less dps than Cswords, but is still considered a viable raid spec. Its not the optimal spec, but its close enough to where anyone who chooses to spec it isnt a raid liability.

Personally, I am glad to see that it seems more than 1 spec will be viable for raiding. While I was happy with mutilate being so powerful pre-poison nerf, I was also a bit disappointed that we were going to be pigeonholed into it if we wanted to raid. Now it looks like there are least 2 different viable raid specs, and unless shiv builds get nerfed, 3. In the end, having a variety of raid specs to choose from will result in an overall more fun raid experience, without having to sacrifice performance.

Edit: I'm not sure this conversation is needed in a forum like this where people aren't concerned with what spec they can get away with in raids, but rather what spec will produce the best performance in raids.

 

lolswordspec

We can now gem for Expertise rating, Precise Red Gems(+ Expertise) and Accurate Orange Gems(+ Expertise / + Hit), and this should be gemmed to cap before any other stat no matter what build you use. (Most bang for your buck.)

For Combat you will still want to Gem Hit as your main stat, after Expertise.

For Mutilate you will need to reach your Expertise cap and then the 9% Hit "soft cap" so that specials don't miss. After that its up in the air about which will lead to higher dps, but the main contenders are Crit, Haste, and Agility.

Yes Vigor gives 10 Energy, but that Energy is only ever "Real" when you are at max Energy. (In between fights.) The usefulness of 10 Energy in a single fight is absolutely minuscule. (1/4 of a Sinister Strike, 1/6 of a Mutilate.) As such people only took it because it was a prerequisite for Mutilate, and now, no one takes it.

 

sp00n

The point is, a Shiv based build is already stronger than Assassination (Mutilate) and also it simply feels very illogical why a weaker off hand attack should outperform a stronger main hand attack.

The only situation I can think of is PvP with Deadly Brew, where it has a 50% chance to proc Crippling Poison.
However in PvP, I then would rather revert to Wound & Mind Numbing Poison, both also having the 50% chance to proc Crippling.


// Edit
As I have written above, removing the damage component of Shiv itself would still result in a higher DPS from a Shiv build than a SS combat build. So this alone will not be enough.

 

Leto

Exactly, for pvp I'd imagine mind numbing mh, wound oh would be ideal, especially since wound has a dmg component to it as well and they both proc crippling with db.

Rogue at heart.

 

◊ Shaker

This is a fair point - combat (in any incarnation) nor assassination should be far ahead of the other tree, however:

This is a completely silly point, and is akin to "all rogues should be using daggers because that's what rogues are supposed to do"

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Leto

How about this for a point? The itemization for a shiv build is different from what blizzard has been pushing for rogues.

A 1.3 speed offhand that is 80 dps might perform better in a shiv build than a 1.6 speed offhand that is 100 dps. Blizz wants us to strive for new items, but there may be an itemization gap where they don't put in another 1.3 speed offhand for a long time, so we wouldn't upgrade.

Rogue at heart.

 

◊ chalon

Right, I guess I should've mentioned Expertise. Expertise is without a doubt a good stat but at least for Mutilate its value isn't quite as high as it might have previously been, since 20% of your damage (poisons) are unaffected by it. Still though, it's definitely a very strong stat especially since you won't have the Surprise Attacks advantage of your finishers being undodgable (and you likely won't have Quick Recovery). Luckily it's not that tough to hit the Expertise cap, since we're seeing it on a lot more items now, and we can gem for it. I'm running at about ~195 Expertise at the moment in Beta, the cap being 215ish. Maybe half of my gear is Naxx 10/badge gear now.

I don't think it's so cut and dry after Expertise however. I don't know if it's empirically been proven that hit is the end all be all stat for either Combat or Mutilate anymore. Again I'm pretty sure AP is the strongest simply because AP and Hit Rating seem to have the same itemization values as they had at 70, yet AP per point still provides the same amount of DPS, whereas hit rating provides potentially 1/2 of what it previously did. But as I said to the best of my knowledge this has not been really looked at since the most recent changes though. I should throw in my more up-to-date gear into Vulajin's sheet and see what the values are at.

EDIT: And you do of course want to hit +9% chance to hit, but that's extremely easy to do with Precision, so we can assume your base gear will provide that.

 

Akka

As I understand, Focused Attacks is quite powerful right now.
They could kill two birds with one stone by simply changing Focused Attacks and Combat Potency with only procing out of NORMAL attacks - nearly no change to Combat Potency, as only Shiv and Mutilate are left-hand special attacks, and nerfing in a moderate way Focused Attacks.
Changing the Shiv Glyph to lessen the energy cost by 5, but also the damage to 25 % of a normal attack, could also help, as could making Shiv a fixed 40 or 35 energie no matter the speed of the dagger.
Partly wrong : instant poison only do damage if it proc, and it proc only on a landing hit. As such, its damage is indirectly affecter by Expertise, as a dodged/parried hit can't proc poison (unless I'm completely mistaken).

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

Andeh

With regard to why Shiv should not allowed to be a top DPS raid build is that Blizzard has established that they do not like players exploiting "utility" abilities to artificially inflate DPS. Remember at 60 how Arms Warriors abused "Spamstring?" They would mash Hamstring in between Mortal Strikes to proc Windfury and Sword Specialization. Blizzard removed the ability for abilities to proc WF/SS to counter this (although, correct me if I'm wrong, they later reinstated procing SS off abilities).

 

◊ Shaker

It's only a utility ability if you use a utility poison - if you use a damage poison, it's a damaging ability. This whole conversation is just really silly - if the 51 point talent was to make kick to 3000 damage, generate a combo point, and have no cooldown for 25 energy - then we'd discuss kick builds.

The itemization point is a valid one - if the build is so gimmicky that it relies on really obtuse itemization, then it is likely unintended and will likely get fixed.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.