PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 99

Kumar · 08/30/08, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by swelt

Have you tried using blade flurry and murder spree together?

It doesn't seem to stack.

This has to be a really early implementation of Murder Spree. In this state, it is unusable for any instances.

Kapuras · 08/30/08, 6:58 PM

With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.

Lightning Reflexes = Dual Wield Specialization.

jonnnney · 08/30/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kapuras

With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.

Lightning Reflexes = Dual Wield Specialization.

I would think you could trade one point of precision for shadow step.

Kumar · 08/30/08, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kapuras

With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.

Lightning Reflexes = Dual Wield Specialization.

Having played around with different specs in the Beta, combat still seems to be the strongest.

Especially with raid gear as you achieve high crit rating + Malice + Unfair Advantage, and adding the Crit strike damage bonus from Prey on the Weak + Lethality, your damage numbers are going to be pretty high. I am interested to see what changes they are making to Unfair Advantage and Stay of Execution, the blue post said the new talent use for them will be more offensive/utility based.

Arindelest · 08/30/08, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

IMO, Combat will still be the strongest for PvE DPS, especially when you attain a high crit rating.

Deep Combat's strength will depend on the new Lightning Reflexes and the "new" talents (Stay of Execution, Unfair Advantage, Throwing Weapon Spec). But I think it is quite clear at this point that Blizzard wants deep builds of all three trees to be at least playable in PvE, given the incoming buffs to Deep Combat, the buff to CttC, and the reorganization of Subtlety. How successful they are depends basically on how well they can tune the trees to stay close to each other in DPS at different itemization levels (such that different gear or weapons might give you a different preferable spec), and whether they choose to include talented utility (such as Blood Frenzy as has been speculated.)

(Tip: Don't make conjecture without backing it up with something).

Thorak · 08/30/08, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Optikalusion

All actions...
So, think we can start throwing Vanishes around to other players?

e: Also, with 3 minute sprint (according to the blue post) plus 2points in Endurance plus that Sprint glyph - that's sprint on a 30 second CD. I know this will change but really, how awesome would this be.

I highly doubt that. I got a feeling Vanish doesn't cause negative threat, it just drops you from combat/the threat list until the boss combat-pulses again. Can't be sure though.

koaschten · 08/30/08, 10:15 PM

I may have missed it, but the new talents didnt make it in the friday patch, at least i dont see the consolidated dagger/fist spec in my talent screen at the moment. So no testing on mechanics of TotT yet.

Wodahs · 08/31/08, 3:46 AM

Its a pretty unfinished build for sure. We cant make poisons anymore, but we cant buy them either. Dismantle is still 75, several other things.

Hildegard · 08/31/08, 5:00 AM

I'm still very curious about Relentless Strikes. Isn't Relentless Strike the biggest DPS increase per point in the rogues talent trees ? Nature's Grasp is the only one point talent in tier 1 in any talent tree as far as I remember.

• Aldriana · 08/31/08, 5:25 AM

It's still very important, yes. But they haven't said what they're doing with it - they might just be moving it down to tier 1 or 2, but my hope is they're just going to make it trainable. We'll have to wait and see.

charriu · 08/31/08, 5:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Nature's Grasp is the only one point talent in tier 1 in any talent tree as far as I remember.

And just got removed in the last patch. It's trainable now.

Kumar · 08/31/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

I'm still very curious about Relentless Strikes. Isn't Relentless Strike the biggest DPS increase per point in the rogues talent trees ? Nature's Grasp is the only one point talent in tier 1 in any talent tree as far as I remember.

From the Blue quote, it seems like they will make the effect standard for all Finishers and remove the talent.

PSGarak · 08/31/08, 4:17 PM

I always saw Nature's Grasp and Improved Nature's Grasp as a combined 5-point talent, since iNG was also the only 4-point talent ever (except for back in the day with improved Curse of Exhaustion, which was the same deal basically). I don't see any precedent for making Relentless Strikes a 1-point tier 1/2 talent. Although, they could easily make it a 5-point talent: 4/8/12/16/20% chance per combo point, or 5/10/15/20/25 energy return, or minor redesign to 1/2/3/4/5 energy per combo point.

Kukulkan · 08/31/08, 5:26 PM

There is lot of options for blizzard for relentless, for example

1) Trainable, this is probably the best as all spec would be free to spec into most trees.

2) Remove the energy cost of finishing moves. Or reduce it by 25 in all finishing moves, this might be a little OP or too good, as doesnt depend on combo points.

3) Move it tier1 or tier2, this idk, no class i seen has 1 point talent in the first tiers.

4) Include it in another talent,
- On Ruthulness (33% chance per talent point to return 25e 20% chance per combo point)
- On Malice (20% chance per talent point to return 25e 20% chance per combo point)

Bowien · 08/31/08, 6:53 PM

I'd like to interrupt this thrilling discussion of the WotLK changes to touch on the subject of Expose Armor real quick. Going forward, we are going to assume that you (the rogue) has 2/2 Improved Expose Armor.

Now the EJ rogue think tank states, "if your tank is not a warrior, then it is a net raid DPS gain for one rogue to switch to a cycle incorporating Improved Expose Armor rather than having a DPS warrior apply Sunder Armor."

I'm assuming the following (please correct me if I am wrong)
1) Switching from Rupture to EA will result in a small DPS decrease from the rogue using the EA cycle.
2) The above statement in the think tank is referring to 25-man raid situations where even though the rogue will lose a small amount of personal DPS, the net raid DPS will increase significantly due to the large number of physical DPSers present in the raid.

Now, here are my two thoughts/questions:
1) What about in a 10 man raid situation where you may have...let's say 3 physical DPSers and 2 tanks. Is using EA over Rupture justified in this situation? Or should we stick to rupture since less people will be benefiting from the armor penetration?
2) Let's say your main tank is a paladin and you typically run with a warrior off tank. Now, let's assume we have a boss fight where only 1 tank is required and thus any off tanks you have in your raid will have to DPS up. Since your OT is going to be doing sub par DPS as it is, is it therefore prudent to have the DPSing OT keep a 5 stack of sunders up rather than have the rogue use an EA cycle? That way all physical DPSers get the benefit of Armor Pen (albeit a little less), yet the rogue does not sacrifice any DPS by continuing to use Rupture. Or is this not even feasible due to the warrior receiving less rage?