The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 108

Solarion · 04/10/09, 9:30 PM

Thanks to weapon drops, I just changed from combat spec to mutilate, and I'm currently using the mutilate rotation found in the WOTLK pocketbook until I get comfortable and figure out something better:

1. Mutilate to 4+ Combo Points
2. Make sure Hunger for Blood isn't going to drop soon. Refresh it if it will.
3. Is Rupture up? If yes, Envenom. Go to step 1.
4. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If no, Envenom. Go to Step 1.
5. Rupture. Go to Step 1.

How do I model this in the spreadsheet? None of the preset values seem to do what I want.

Nerio · 04/11/09, 4:14 AM

A 4r/4e (CttC) rotation will model that. In should say Minimum X and Minimum Y if you've specced properly. That's where you'll input the two 4s, and you'll select the Xr/Ye (CttC) rotation from the drop down menu right above. This is all on the Talents and Settings page. Hunger for Blood is assumed to be refreshed with I'm guessing with <1 sec remaining.

kjeldor · 04/12/09, 1:18 AM

I'm running into a problem using the spreadsheet with OpenOffice and NeoOffice, specifically an Error:502 in all the cells.

This error only came about with the latest version of the spreadsheet. Is there something I'm missing?

sp00n · 04/12/09, 9:39 AM

Do you use OO3? Afaik v2 isn't supported anymore.

kjeldor · 04/12/09, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Do you use OO3? Afaik v2 isn't supported anymore.

I just updated to OO3 last night, so that isn't it.

Vargoss · 04/12/09, 12:40 PM

Just had a question with regards to 3.09 mechanics. What ultimately puts out better dps in an IDN setup, lpc main with IP, twilight mist off with DP, or dual LPCs IP/DP?

In vulajin's spreadsheet lpc/TM comes out far ahead. In Aldriana's spreadsheet, if I modify the values of the weapons and their stats, lpc/TM is at 5290dps and lpc/lpc at 5280, so it wins there too. All signs point to lpc/TM being the superior IDN combo, with diminishing returns on poison damage once DP stacks are maxed out and getting off mutilates during the envenom buff which have a high chance of applying stacks regardless of weapon speed. Yet when I offered advice to someone on the wow forums to use his TM in the offhand once he got it and that it vastly outperforms dual LPCs in an IDN setup, an entire entourage of people starting flaming me for giving bad information, including some supposedly respected rogues I guess.

None of them could actually prove to me that dual lpcs were superior in any form over lpc/TM, so I'm hoping to find some people that can actually shed some light on the situation and give me a final answer. I distinctly stated that this was for IDN and that dual lpcs were far superior for IIV btw.

ABUSEDGOAT · 04/13/09, 12:25 AM

** I hope I don't get an infraction for this. It's not about how I got my SS DPS to go up, but that I found a 7-51-13 build to be topping a 15-51-5 build with high end gear.

I just played with my combat setup today for the first time in a while and saw something interesting. I've read for a long time that 7-51-13 is only good for fairly fresh 80s, and that 15-51-5 is better when you get geared. I've been using a 3s/5r/5e rotation with 15-51-5. (Glyphs of SS, SnD and rupture)

My gear is almost all BIS. (I'm posting this b/c my armory will be different)
4/5 7.5
Maly gloves
Calamity's MH, Hailstorm OH (4/5 sword spec in talents)
KT cape
25 sapph neck
belt of the tortured
spinning fate
mirror and greatness
thrusting bands
surge/strong handed rings
vile deceit boots

For 15-51-5, SS gives a value of 5466. Out of curiosity, I compared it to a 7-51-13 build. I changed the rotation to 5s/5r. Then I went 5/5 sword spec and 1/2 imp SnD. Then I changed the SnD glyph to blade flurry. After this I got a value of 5491. Did I mess up or is 7-51-13 topping the cookie cutter combat spec?

This brings up a few questions. Is ruthlessness modeled accurately enough to convince me to switch to 7-51-13? Each point in 15-51-5 is worth about 40 DPS. (A 5s/5r/5e rotation with 0/3 ruthlessness gives each point about a 30 DPS value) Secondly, wouldn't 7-51-13 be that much more desirable in T8 regardless?

Kitteh · 04/13/09, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by ABUSEDGOAT

** I hope I don't get an infraction for this. It's not about how I got my SS DPS to go up, but that I found a 7-51-13 build to be topping a 15-51-5 build with high end gear.

I just played with my combat setup today for the first time in a while and saw something interesting. I've read for a long time that 7-51-13 is only good for fairly fresh 80s, and that 15-51-5 is better when you get geared. I've been using a 3s/5r/5e rotation with 15-51-5. (Glyphs of SS, SnD and rupture)

My gear is almost all BIS. (I'm posting this b/c my armory will be different)
4/5 7.5
Maly gloves
Calamity's MH, Hailstorm OH (4/5 sword spec in talents)
KT cape
25 sapph neck
belt of the tortured
spinning fate
mirror and greatness
thrusting bands
surge/strong handed rings
vile deceit boots

For 15-51-5, SS gives a value of 5466. Out of curiosity, I compared it to a 7-51-13 build. I changed the rotation to 5s/5r. Then I went 5/5 sword spec and 1/2 imp SnD. Then I changed the SnD glyph to blade flurry. After this I got a value of 5491. Did I mess up or is 7-51-13 topping the cookie cutter combat spec?

This brings up a few questions. Is ruthlessness modeled accurately enough to convince me to switch to 7-51-13? Each point in 15-51-5 is worth about 40 DPS. (A 5s/5r/5e rotation with 0/3 ruthlessness gives each point about a 30 DPS value) Secondly, wouldn't 7-51-13 be that much more desirable in T8 regardless?

I happen to be looking at this myself. Now the thing is with the poison mechanics change coming in there is an 18/51/2 build which currently appears to be top, i'd think there would almost certainly be certain gear synergies that boosted either of the other cookie cutters slightly higher.

On mine I loose about 30 dps from 15/51/5 to 7/51/13 but with the tradeoff of a much shorter cycle (around 6/7 seconds shorter) which generally makes the spec easier to play as there's less you have to worry about. Now min/maxing you obviously take the slightly harder route but it seems serrated blades is hanging on in a "definitely viable" slot. As you rightly say, with 4+ T8 there may well be more to get out of it as it would increase the baseline rupture the crit on the set is based from. As to if this is significant enough, pass.

There is a small possibility for a slightly OP cookie cutter with rupture crits from the set included (napkin maths only though so I may be a little out).

With ArP getting a very slight buff in 3.1 the combination of ArP native to Serrated Blades may help to push things slightly in favour of the 7/51/13 flavour build.
I think the point it will be based around is 30% crit damage on sinister vs 10% flat on rupture which can then crit. The final point to note with this is (according to the spreadsheet) I can strip pretty much all slice n dice buffs from the build giving an extra Glyph slot and 2 spare points in combat without dropping 100% slice uptime.

Haoli · 04/13/09, 6:36 PM

I made a rather frightening discovery after reading these last two posts, and as it is relevant, I figured this should be shared, so that others might not make the same mistake.

In the past, when I've been considering a 7/51/13 combat build, I had always assumed that the last 2 points in assassination were put into Blood Spatter. I find now that this is incorrect, the last two points are actually put into ruthlessness. With this change in consideration, I find 7/51/13 outstrips 15/51/5 in the current best-in-slot combat JC/LW setup by .63%.

Rerox · 04/14/09, 6:52 AM

Vulajin: Since the patch will hit us this week, do you have any news on when you'll be able to show an "official" updated version of your sheet? I know there are several "custom made" 3.1 sheets, but I guess if we all had the same sheet to trust that would be great.

wkd · 04/15/09, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Gogge

For me it was some problem with the "CHOOSE(index;value;value;...) * (value)" part in the "Evis/Env DPS" rows on the cycle 1/2 sheets, it thought that one of those two was a different type, i.e one string and the other a number, or similar, and it broke. Just editing and pressing enter resolved the issue in that specific cell, and then copy/pasting it to the rest of the cells on that row was pretty quick work and seems to have solved it for me, I didn't explore it thoroughly but here's a version that I could use in excel 2007:

http://gogge.se/LC_v0.5_Combat_Ulduar_0.4.7_excel.xls
http://rapidshare.com/files/219106041/LC_v0.5_Mutilate_Ulduar_0.4.7_excel.xls

Edit: Did the same changes to the fixed version of the sheet as posted by FWk below, fixed a typo in the "Xe (CttC)" cycletableref that referenced to cttce1[x] instead of cttce[x].

Edit2: Added the mutilate sheet.

can someone re-up the mutilate fixed excel spreadsheet, thanks

Mideci · 04/15/09, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Haoli

I made a rather frightening discovery after reading these last two posts, and as it is relevant, I figured this should be shared, so that others might not make the same mistake.

In the past, when I've been considering a 7/51/13 combat build, I had always assumed that the last 2 points in assassination were put into Blood Spatter. I find now that this is incorrect, the last two points are actually put into ruthlessness. With this change in consideration, I find 7/51/13 outstrips 15/51/5 in the current best-in-slot combat JC/LW setup by .63%.

I made the same mistake, for what it's worth. I am guessing it comes down to cycle smoothing that gives the ruthlessness points the edge? It's simply easier to nail your finishers with a few extra combo points.

When you did your testing of the builds, what cycle did you find the best with 7/51/13 btw?

Lyphe · 04/15/09, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by ABUSEDGOAT

** I hope I don't get an infraction for this. It's not about how I got my SS DPS to go up, but that I found a 7-51-13 build to be topping a 15-51-5 build with high end gear.

I just played with my combat setup today for the first time in a while and saw something interesting. I've read for a long time that 7-51-13 is only good for fairly fresh 80s, and that 15-51-5 is better when you get geared. I've been using a 3s/5r/5e rotation with 15-51-5. (Glyphs of SS, SnD and rupture)

My gear is almost all BIS. (I'm posting this b/c my armory will be different)
4/5 7.5
Maly gloves
Calamity's MH, Hailstorm OH (4/5 sword spec in talents)
KT cape
25 sapph neck
belt of the tortured
spinning fate
mirror and greatness
thrusting bands
surge/strong handed rings
vile deceit boots

For 15-51-5, SS gives a value of 5466. Out of curiosity, I compared it to a 7-51-13 build. I changed the rotation to 5s/5r. Then I went 5/5 sword spec and 1/2 imp SnD. Then I changed the SnD glyph to blade flurry. After this I got a value of 5491. Did I mess up or is 7-51-13 topping the cookie cutter combat spec?

This brings up a few questions. Is ruthlessness modeled accurately enough to convince me to switch to 7-51-13? Each point in 15-51-5 is worth about 40 DPS. (A 5s/5r/5e rotation with 0/3 ruthlessness gives each point about a 30 DPS value) Secondly, wouldn't 7-51-13 be that much more desirable in T8 regardless?

I'll be doing all my own testing this morning on the three core set-ups, but the most recent Simulation testing had in fact been showing 15/51/5 ahead by a slight margin.
Rogue DPS Simulation Spreadsheet

Lyphe · 04/15/09, 11:03 AM

So I spent some time testing 15/51/5 today against 18/51/2. My testing actually shows a significant DPS increase by moving to 18/51/2. Now, granted that this is only against a SW training dummy ( so no buffs ), but the difference was still rather substantial. Here are some of my numbers:

15/51/5
2850.60 DPS
38.1% Melee
25.9% SS
13.2% Wound
10.9% Deadly
7.3% Rupture
4.7% Evis
Poisons: WP/DP
Glyphes: Rup/SS/SnD
Rotn: 3s/5r/5e
Note: Did not employ KS

18/51/2
3060.80 DPS
35.7% Melee
24.6% SS
14.9% Wound
12.9% Deadly
6.8% Rupture
5.1% Evis
Poisons: WP/DP
Glyphes: Rup/SS/SnD
Rotn: 3s/5r/5e
Note: Did not employ KS

I'd love to see any testing that other ppl are able to post, including for MUT builds, so that we can begin to get a sense for what specs are doing the most damage now that we're live.

Xaoc · 04/15/09, 11:33 AM

A standard 15/51/5 build will scale better in a raid (obviously) because there will be sunders. 18/51/2 deals a lot more magic damage that will obviously skew results on a training dummy. There is also the fact that you didnt mention how long your tests were, which will also skew results; a shorter fight is far more subject to RNG than a longer one.