The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 12

Amerilina · 10/13/08, 3:14 AM

I tested the Tailoring Back enchant:
Swordguard Embroidery - Spell - World of Warcraft

I just did a quick look at it, but appears to be a 50 second internal cool down. Also it takes the place of a back enchant so u can have 1 or the other.

Here is a log if someone wants to really dig into it.

SwordGuard Embroidery Log

• Aldriana · 10/13/08, 3:29 AM

Well, if it's 50 seconds internal cooldown, and 15 sec per proc, that gives at most 30% uptime, meaning the average-case benefit is at most 90 AP; since the enchanting alternative is 22 agi, that's a benefit of at most ~46 EP, which puts it pretty far behind the other professions in terms of PvE benefit.

Indz · 10/13/08, 5:13 AM

I also looked at your log, and i found a minimum downtime of 35sec 88ms. And very often I found 36-39sec.
So the internal cooldown would be 50sec with a duration of 15sec.

So the 50sec internal cooldown seems to be correct. Overall you had an Uptime in your test of ~26.73% so it's close to the 30% Aldriana said.

luke_twigger · 10/13/08, 6:32 AM

Originally Posted by ripklawe

I am curious. I loaded up a spreadsheet to see what kind of difference I could expect to see with Combat Swords vs Mutilate. I ran both, on humanoid targets, and came up with only a 12dps difference in favor of mutilate. This of course changes when the target is not murderable. My question is this:

Is that right?

Seems like mutilate should be doing better. Did I miss something?

Mutilate was doing a lot better than combat a few weeks ago, but successive recent builds have nerfed elements of the assassination tree (e.g. Focussed Attacks) and buffed elements of the Combat tree (e.g. Blade Twisting), such that the two are pretty close now. Seems most people are seeing Mutilate slightly ahead when the mob is Murderable, otherwise Combat slightly ahead. Also, few people have identical quality daggers and swords available so slight differences in weapon stats could give one build the edge.

Couple of comments on your spreadsheets. I believe we only get 2 major glyphs at lvl70, increasing to 3 by lvl80. So this would slightly reduce the Combat result (from 2886 to 2866, removing Sinister Strike glyph, making no other changes). (edit just remembered that the Rupture glyph needs Northrend mats so won't be available for these lvl70 builds, which will change things yet again)

Also, try experimenting with the minimum X and Y values for your cycle - I improved your Combat dps from 2886 (5s5r) to 2891 (4s5r). For some reason your Mutilate sheet has a #VALUE error message in Envenom DPS so I couldn't play with that usefully.

Noktelius · 10/13/08, 6:44 AM

Originally Posted by Noktelius

I found something strange in LK 0.3.2 : The rupture glyph has no effect on a 5s/5r/5e cycle

In the rupture dps formula, what is the 10% increase in bonus talent called "t72pc" ?

Even with no talent point, I still have t72pc = 1

Ok I get it, it's the bonescythe bonus. So it's additive with talents and not multiplicative with them like mangle, strange...

But am I wrong with the rupture glyph ?

ravenhldt · 10/13/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Well, if it's 50 seconds internal cooldown, and 15 sec per proc, that gives at most 30% uptime, meaning the average-case benefit is at most 90 AP; since the enchanting alternative is 22 agi, that's a benefit of at most ~46 EP, which puts it pretty far behind the other professions in terms of PvE benefit.

My apology if this isn't the place to bring forth a profession comparison, but wouldn't this ~46 EP, combined with the shoulder enchant inscription Master's Inscription of the Axe (+64 EP? or has the shoulder enchance for non-inscriptions changed?) make up a potential total of +110EP, putting it in possibly position #1 as an endgame profession.

Edit: wrong numbers

Edit2: oops, different professions

• Aldriana · 10/13/08, 3:38 PM

I fail to see how the existence of Inscription shoulder enchants is in any way applicable to the value of the Tailoring cloak enchant, or Tailoring as a profession.

Amerilina · 10/13/08, 4:22 PM

I will get you information on Icebreaker weapon enchant when it actual does something. Is there any other grunt work you guys need done?

kargathia · 10/14/08, 7:27 AM

Never mind, I just came back and remembered that I actually did do a search for Edge of Oppression, but didn't ask it a more generic question like "fast dagger(s)"
But thank you for the info, time to go for Plug'n'Pray in the spreadsheet, since I am close to illiterate with excel.

Tinwhisker · 10/14/08, 8:28 AM

Originally Posted by kargathia

It looks like nobody said this earlier, since search result only yielded Warr making a reference to it, but [Edge of Oppression] currently isn't listed as viable MH weapon.
EDIT: nor is any other <1.8 speed dagger by the looks of it.

The Roguecraft Spreadsheet

Also for reference here's Warr's post that tells you how to account for this.
PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

sp00n · 10/14/08, 9:31 AM

I added Wound Poison V as an temporary weapon enchant to the sheet to see how it affects damage.

Much to my surprise Wound Poison came out ahead of Instant Poison in a combat build (but not ahead of Deadly?).

Deadly/Instant:	3002.76 DPS
Instant/Deadly:	2994.96 DPS

Deadly/Wound:	3032.07 DPS
Wound/Deadly:	3022.68 DPS

Instant/Wound:	2971.10 DPS
Wound/Instant:	2969.51 DPS

Wound/Wound:	2998.82 DPS

I also added a separate head to head comparison between IP and WP for both main and off hand, WP wins both by about 24-26 DPS before any modifiers (i.e. raid buffs).

Now I'm not sure if I messed things up a bit. Is the formula for Wound Poison as seen on the tooltip from WoWHead, 50% chance for 112 + 0.04 * AP damage?

Also, if the formula from WoWHead is correct, I'm not sure where you get your formula for Instant Poison from.
Your sheet says 188 + 0.1 * AP, whereas WoWHead's tooltip tells me it's 161 + 0.1 * AP.

Was the tooltip found to be incorrect? If so, what is the correct formula for Wound Poison?

I'm using no Envenom in the cycle selected (5s/5r), so there's no influence of Envenom (plus I removed the Envenom part on the Wound Poison Proc Rate formula).

Again, I have uploaded the sheet for you to be able to check for errors:
Roguecraft BC 0.4.1.Combat.Raid.rar

sp00n · 10/14/08, 4:08 PM

Noticed a small oversight in the sheet.
Surefooted was changed to 10hit 10crit in the recent patch, still only 10hit in the sheet.

• Vulajin · 10/14/08, 4:14 PM

Ironically making it the best current boot enchant, especially if you have Fleet Footed.

genjaguar · 10/14/08, 6:14 PM

Has SoC passed up both AToL and DST for anyone else in a mutilate build? Seems sort of weird to me and I was wondering if it's because of my gear or if some other factors are affecting it.

I'm using the standard 51/5/5(3 rel/2op) mutilate build.

sp00n · 10/15/08, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Ironically making it the best current boot enchant, especially if you have Fleet Footed.

And more over, the best boot enchant even for caster classes.
Albeit the name 'Surefooted' itself doesn't have to do much anymore what the enchant actually does now, with the snare resist being gone.

One thing I'd like to now though, is how much movement per minute has to be involved in a fight to let Cat's Swiftness come out ahead again.

Timujingeo · 10/15/08, 10:52 AM

With the changes to the hit-cap at 151 now, I was interested in seeing how much difference re-gemming to agility would give me.
So punched in +10 agiity gems for reds, +5 agil/+5hit for yellows and was amazed to see that my overall dps went down by 30dps?
Am I missing something, surely dps should rocket if all the redundant hit is converted to agility and thus AP?
This was using the BC 4.1 spreadsheet btw.

Professor Hurt · 10/15/08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Timujingeo

With the changes to the hit-cap at 151 now, I was interested in seeing how much difference re-gemming to agility would give me.
So punched in +10 agiity gems for reds, +5 agil/+5hit for yellows and was amazed to see that my overall dps went down by 30dps?
Am I missing something, surely dps should rocket if all the redundant hit is converted to agility and thus AP?
This was using the BC 4.1 spreadsheet btw.

Did you keep two blue gems around (purples in your case) to meet meta gem requirements?

Drzivago · 10/15/08, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Timujingeo

With the changes to the hit-cap at 151 now, I was interested in seeing how much difference re-gemming to agility would give me.
So punched in +10 agiity gems for reds, +5 agil/+5hit for yellows and was amazed to see that my overall dps went down by 30dps?
Am I missing something, surely dps should rocket if all the redundant hit is converted to agility and thus AP?
This was using the BC 4.1 spreadsheet btw.

I did replace all of my sockets, leaving 2x 5agi5hi, 2x 5agi7stam and all the others 10 agi and used the same sheet u used and got a pretty big overall INCREASE in dps, so u must have messed something up.

Tinwhisker · 10/15/08, 12:09 PM

In my own gemming data for a level 70 combat swords build, I found the sheet said that socketing 10agi was the best for each socket unless the socket bonus was >=6AP. If I could gain a socket bonus of 6AP or more it was better to use hit/agi (yellow) and/or agi/stam (blue) to gain the socket bonus.

Edit: And yes, I checked against my meta requirements by making sure the requirements were met by other pieces before testing socketing in others. The gains by using the above methodology were often very slight (<=1DPS) but were repeatable for all pieces I tested.

Timujingeo · 10/15/08, 1:44 PM

Unfortunately my headpiece is the rather garish grimguard.
Despite killing Illidan for some 4 months now he has failed to cough even one cursed vision, let alone a glaive.
So metas are not high on my list of concerns atm, but thank you for an oversight.
I'll check the sheet again later as my findings can't be right.

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

Did you keep two blue gems around (purples in your case) to meet meta gem requirements?

archaon · 10/15/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

In my own gemming data for a level 70 combat swords build, I found the sheet said that socketing 10agi was the best for each socket unless the socket bonus was >=6AP. If I could gain a socket bonus of 6AP or more it was better to use hit/agi (yellow) and/or agi/stam (blue) to gain the socket bonus.

Edit: And yes, I checked against my meta requirements by making sure the requirements were met by other pieces before testing socketing in others. The gains by using the above methodology were often very slight (<=1DPS) but were repeatable for all pieces I tested.

Strangely I'm finding that the spreadsheet is telling me that AP gems would be best to use. I wanted to find out how each stat would compare to one another so I added one point (in terms of item budget) to each stat and see how much of a dps increase this yielded. I did this at a gear level, so it should take into account any buffs or talents with % stat increases. With my current mix of Sunwell and T6 gear, level 70 5/51/5 Combat Spec with Sinister Strike as a combo point builder and a 4s5r cycle I came up with the following values.

1.54 dps - 2 Attack Power
1.34 dps - 1 Agility
1.26 dps - 1 Crit Rating
1.21 dps - 1 Hit Rating
1.21 dps - 1 Armor Pen Rating
1.20 dps - 1 Haste Rating

I was expecting hit rating to drop with all of the increases to SS damage, but I thought that Agility would be taking its place on top. Did I do something wrong here or is AP our best stat for Sunwell gear at level 70 now?

Edit: I was mistakenly using the WotLK spreadsheet instead of the PTR spreadsheet, but the numbers are still not what I expected and so I will list my results with the proper spreadsheet below. The input was the same as above.

1.17 dps - 2 Attack Power
1.17 dps - 1 Agility
1.15 dps - 1 Haste Rating
1.09 dps - 1 Crit Rating
1.06 dps - 1 Armor Pen Rating
1.05 dps - 1 Hit Rating

Tinwhisker · 10/15/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by archaon

Strangely I'm finding that the spreadsheet is telling me that AP gems would be best to use.

Others have said it before and I'm really preaching it to everyone I talk to in-game. The numbers for everything are close enough now that differences in a piece of gear here or there can swing optimal gems one way or the other. It's probably going to be different for everyone.

The 'swinging' may have been present pre-3.0 but with hit out-scaling everything else so dramatically in a combat build nobody probably ever noticed.

Edit: The damage of your Muramasa is greater than my Blade of Infamy which may account for part of the difference you and I see; there are other gear differences that favor AP as well.

Onaicul · 10/15/08, 3:41 PM

how much hit is required now that 3.0 is live?
For either combat or mut, do i bottom out down to 150 for the poison cap and stack up on AGI/AP and agi/hit or crit gems.
The spreadsheet is giving me mixed results, and i have yet to be able to find a decent resource on how to gem mutilate. Everyone was so used to combat for all of TBC, its hard to find reliable data on how to optimally perform through mutilate.

Tinwhisker · 10/15/08, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Onaicul

how much hit is required now that 3.0 is live?

There is no magic number for hit and there never was.

Post 3.0, the value of hit rating is greater below the soft-cap for poisons than it is above the soft-cap. Going below the soft-cap isn't necessarily 'bad' and neither is being above it. That said, being mid-300s on hit means you're probably wasting stat points on hit when it's value is far below the value of other stats at that point.

Onaicul · 10/15/08, 4:14 PM

im sitting at about 230 now, was 300 prior to the update, but a spec change, daggers over swords and a few gems changed that. I have no prior experience with mutilate, so i'm kinda shooting in the dark trying to get everything together before raid invites go out later tonight.

i'll link to armory incase anyone has some suggestions.

Armory