Stylle

I found that without the rupture glyph, 3 finisher cyles outperform 2 finisher cycles when specced combat SS.
Have others found this to be true as well or is this just an eccentricity of my gear?

Also, with the 5s/5r/5n cyle pooling before the snd and rupture but NOT before the envenom seems to work best for me. Makes sense I suppose, since a 5 point envenom is more damage/energy than a sinister strike.

 

Wodahs

Tonight in swp I ran mainly a 3 finisher cycle, with a 5/51/5 build with ss and snd glyphs. I have top tier gear, and had some very good numbers. Over 4k dps on brut and on kj. O cant run a 2 finisher rotation most of the time, simply due to not being able to cut a lower ap snd on a higher ap snd. The rogue craft spreadsheet puts me at ~3400 dps.

Would combat logs help at all to figure out where the discrepencies were? I have to admit, my rotations don't look pretty, it wasn't my strongest showing between chaos/mod issues, but maybe something in the logs can highlight discrepancies in the spreadsheet?

 

Wytryszek

I am playing with BC4.1 version. I use combat build 5/51/5 with Vanir's fists. That gives me 2600dps with SS combo builder. Switching to Shiv results in 40dps more. SS is glyphed, Shiv is NOT (glyphed Shiv would be almost +200dps!, but I think we can't make it yet?).
Instant poison is on the offhand.
Is that for real? The infamous shiv rogue?
It would actually free one glyph slot too..

Also, something may be bugged in the 5s/5r/5e cycle (which looks interesting with shiv) - adding or removing a Rupture glyph does nothing.
Actually, on MS office all the cycles with E produce VALUE error on Eviscerate DPS for me.

 

folderol

Shiv builds have very competitive theoretical DPS but in practice they are quite often GCD-limited leading to wasted energy. The GCD is never taken into account by the spreadsheet which assumes that our DPS is energy-limited.
Also, with Blizzard having stated their intention of removing Shiv from Combat Potency, that build will be severly scaled back when WotLK hits retail.

 

Alexsiss

Vulajin i might have found a slight bug. After inputting my gear(regemmed 10agi/5hit5agi) and all relevant raid buffs. I found a buff that actually lowers your dps. Namely Imp Moonkin Form/Swift Retribution

Dps without: 3904.56
Dps with: 3987.32

It increases dps fine when Windfury is disabled but i thought windfury and imp moonkin form stacked so I don't understand why imp moonkin is decreasing dps.

 

MasterDinadan

If Shiv comes out on top without the glyph, it should continue to come out on top if it is taken off of Potency, with the glyph. Potency gives an average discount of 3 energy, and the glyph gives a discount of 5. Shiv will get better, though not by quite as much.
It seems unlikely that the GCD would interfere with a Shiv rotation. Is it not 1 second for rogues? You could CP proc every 3 seconds and you'd still be able to spend all your energy on Shiv spam (even taking the new Vitality into account).

I made a post about how effective Shiv seems to be on the other Rogue thread, but nobody seemed to pay attention. I tried several specs in the spreadsheet with the default gear that is has (which I guess is some of the best at level 80, didn't pay much attention) and the Shiv build I tried 18/51/2 came out well ahead of anything else.

 

Andeh

For those experimenting with the 3 finisher combat rotation, one thing I noticed while playing with the sheet is that you can gain a bit of DPS (10 for me) by queuing 80 energy prior to firing Rupture. If you think about this, it makes sense: you no longer are at the risk of getting both a 20 energy regen tick plus a 15 energy Combat Potency proc pushing you past 100 energy, since energy regens fluidly. In addition, the extra queued energy makes it more likely that your Envenom (following the Rupture) will fall under your ATL uptime.

 

tymoney321

Shiv also seems to come ahead for me by 16 dps with the default spec(at 70). However since I am able to remove all points from Aggression and Blade Twisting and instead max out Sword Specialization, the gap widens to a whooping 43.78 dps. I am curious to see how big the gap gets when I swap to Wound Poison instead of Instant.

 

MasterDinadan

The ideal combat spec for Shiv takes both QCQ (the crit is the best benefit you can have in the main hand) AND Sword Spec (the best benefit in the offhand), and in fact all of the talent points you free up by not speccing for SS allows you to take both easily. Of course, most people's ideal weapon set does not contain a MH fist and an OH sword. The gain by dual speccing weapons is probably not big enough to overcome a large disparity in weapon quality. If you already have an amazing sword, don't change to a mediocre first just to use CQC.

I'm not sure that swapping to Wound is ideal. It's good for non-shiv specs due to higher proc rate, but shiv procs no matter what so you want your hardest hitting poison on.

 

tymoney321

I have the fist from Kil'Jaeden and a offhand warglaive, so I would be QCQ+Swords regardless of shiv or Sinister strike.

I doubt swapping to wound would be ideal for shiv. I wonder if using wound over instant for Sinister Strike might allow it to over take combat shiv? Probably not.

 

Eleile

Posted this in the rogue pve dps list.

For those wondering the exact AP values per rank of improved poisons where wound and instant diverge (for spreadsheet calculations), here they are listed below.

770 ap imp 5 = wound 71.4 average
1365 ap imp 4 = wound 83.3 average
2356 ap imp 3 = wound 103.12 average
4341 ap imp 2 = wound 142.82 average
10290 ap imp 1 = wound 261.8 average

 

• indravarman

Current spreadsheet version 0.4.1 does not allow for modeling of the Umbral Shiv in the offhand. Q_Q

 

Imiut

sp00n, I was wondering how you added Wound Poison to the temp weapon enchants. I can't seem to find the formula on the MH weapon sheet, where is it hidden?

Also, I found a bug where the HP displayed on the Talents sheet and the Gear sheet is different.

 

songster

I understand Mutilate and Combat are within spitting distance of each other for boss fights as things stand - how do they pan out for shorter fights? I'm thinking add fights mainly, but also trash DPS and smaller instances. Right now it feels like Mutilate has a much MUCH longer wind-up time than Combat due to the requirement to get HFB / DP / S'n'D and Ruptures all up and running before you hit peak output. Every time you change targets, you get a DPS hit from losing the poison on the mob as well as any unused combo points.

Had a pretty horrid Heroic dungeon session last night - might have been due to the fact that rogue AoE will suck until we get Fan (and even then suck quite a bit), and in T6 gear everything except bosses is an AoE pull.

 

sp00n

On the MH and OH sheet you only add the name of the temporary enchants. The real voodoo is done in the DPS sheet. To see the calculation for Wound Poison, scroll to the right, it's placed right next to the original Instant Poison calculation.


You might be interested in reading my summary of a 30 minute Shiv testing on the PTR:
PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

Theoretically Shiv is a better build, but it's just so horrible to time and play that it's not worth it. For me at last.
If you can manage it and have actually fun doing so, more kudos to you.

 

Imiut

Contrary to your result sp00n, I'm getting better results using WP/DP instead of DP/WP. I've used your addition on the spreadsheet to verify. Also, I checked if in your's the bug I mentioned before was also present.

On the Talent & Settings tab, my HP shows 100 lower than on the rest of the tabs. For sp00n's gear, this is 130. It appears it has nothing to do with stamina gems, stamina buffs or HP buffs.

 

sp00n

Can't really comment on the DP/WP issue, I just suspect this changes with gear and haste. Also surely weapon speed plays a role.
Did you check with my gear or only yours? Now if you received better results using my gear, that would be something to investigate.

I've isolated the bug you've mentioned. It's due to the change of Vitality and Endurance, where the HP increase switched talents. To correct this, replace every occurrence of "tvit" with "tend" in the health cell's formula.
The formula in the Talent sheet is correct, so you may as well just copy it over to the other sheets.

---

In other news, I've done another editing to the sheet, this time to somewhat easily reflect AEP values.
I wanted to do this automatically by simply copying over the DPS sheet for every stat, but I noticed that to do this right, I'd have to copy DPS Calc 1-3 as well, which would have caused maintaining the sheet a nightmare, so I refrained from that.

The bandaid I come up with now still involves you entering a number for every AEP you want to calculate, but the calculation to AEP then is done automatically.


Changes:

• In the Gear sheet there is a new section to the right. It's split in three sub sections. On the left one, you enter the DPS values (see below), the middle and right ones calculate the corresponding AEP and DPS values. For AEP I chose a scale of 2 AEP, since I wanted the values to actually greater than 1.
• On the bottom of the Gear sheet, you see a new selection list, called AEP Stats, right beneath "Trinket 2". There you can chose which stat should be increased. I chose an increase value of 20 points per stat, as low numbers seem to produce unforeseen results due to flooring issues, as have been reported in here.
• There are several other changes, mainly in the DPS sheet, but those are only important if you want to change the way things are calculated. I've also added an AEP sheet to reflect the dropdown list. There you can change the increase value from 20 to anything you like.
• The variable 'saveddps' has also been moved to the Gear sheet to be able to do the calculation without switching sheets (was on the DPS sheet before).
• I changed every occurrence of 'Gear!X12:X88' to 'Gear!X12:X89' to include the new AEP stat row. At least I hope I did.

The important part: How to use it

Not as simple as I'd like, but still not too complicated I hope.

1. Enter your gear as you wish.
2. Set AEP stats to 'none', if not already set.
3. Insert the DPS value from 'Total DPS' into 'Previous DPS' (from cell C8 to cell C9).
4. Go through each AEP stat. After selecting a stat, enter the DPS value from 'Total DPS' into the corresponding cell in row J one by one. This row must be filled, or the AEP calculation will not work.
   
   Do not change the 'Original' field in cell J1. This is a direct reference to 'Previous DPS' and should not be changed unless you know what you are doing.

There could be some flaws, like forgetting to extend the stat collection on one of the sheets (checked only on DPS and DPS Calc 1-3), not fully understanding how DPS is calculated, forgetting to change a variable, etc. You get what I mean.



Please also note this sheet incorporates all my former changes:

• Added Wound Poison
• Changed DPS calculation to reflect crit changes due to level differences (0.2% per level)
• Added some fast weapons to the main hand section
• Corrected health bug as mentioned above

Download the sheet


// Edit
This sheet now includes the Rupture bug fix described below.

 

Wytryszek

Well, the Rupture glyph inconsistency between 2 and 3 finisher cycles is still there.

 

sp00n

Found that nasty bugger!

Painful search, because I first had to understand (or rather follow, didn't understand much of it) of how the sheet calculates the cycles.


To fix it:

Sheet Cycles
Row 214
Replace every instance of DPS!$J$25-29 with DPS!$I$25-29

Sheet Cycles 1
Row 185
Replace every instance of DPS Calc 1!$J$21-25 with DPS Calc 1!$I$21-25

Sheet Cycles 2
Row 185
Replace every instance of DPS Calc 2!$J$21-25 with DPS Calc 2!$I$21-25

Sheet Cycles 3
Row 185
Replace every instance of DPS Calc 3!$J$21-25 with DPS Calc 3!$I$21-25


Basically it's just replacing the J with an I. Row J is actually the calculation for Eviscerate, and not Rupture.

The good thing is, you just have to edit the first cell of each row, and then drag the cell to the right up to the last entry.


The cycle XsXrXe was the only one affected by this bug, all other cycles had the correct formula. So 2 finisher cycles are and were working fine with the Rupture glyph.

I also couldn't reproduce the other bug you've mentioned:
Working on Excel 2002 (XP) here.


// Edit
Updated the sheet above to reflect the bug fix.

 

MasterDinadan

Looks like the main problem was not energy capping during AR. You could spec Imp SS (but not aggression and blade twisting) and just start popping SS during AR. It will be less energy efficient than Shiv but energy efficiency is not important if you are managing to cap. It's all about doing the most damage per GCD and SS will do better (or maybe grab a dagger and start backstabbing! :P)

 

Grimmlokk

So playing with the 0.4.1 BC spreadsheet and I had a question: Why does my DPS go down by 24 if I have anything besides Skinning as my 2nd profession. Searched the thread and got zero results for "skinning".

 

Grital

Skinning now adds crit as it's profession perk. "Master of Anatomy."

 

Tryss

Engineering is not an option in the profession list (BC 0.4.1). I recognize it is not the best choice, but it still is a choice and it does offer that on use haste glove device in WotLK.

 

Amerilina

Well A few changes in new Beta patch to professions for enchanting:

Massacre now says 2-handers
Enchant bracers Assault is now 50 AP
Icebreaker weapon now working log to follow.

 

Wytryszek

Thanks for fixing the sheet!
I don't see the other problem either now. Maybe the fixed cured it as well (or maybe it was something corrupted on my side?)