I was playing with the new spreadsheet for the current live builds (0.4.1). I noticed that in the new build running 5/51/5 swords that agi was coming up point for point better than hit even well below the cap (the gear I currently have sticks me at 300hit, 2088ap, ~27%crit since the armory is out of date). For example a 10hit gem was based at 3010.63, 5hit5agi 3010.09, 10agi 3012.37. This seems vastly different than some of the previous builds.


Did something change in the stat weighting since you have been trying to model mutilate better? Would you consider the scaling with combat accurate at the moment?

I was playing around with the branch of this sheet "Roguecraft BC 0.4.1.AEP.bugfixed" and compared to the "Roguecraft BC 0.4.1" I'm seeing some weird interactions between Wound/Instant Poison and Eviscerate/Envenom as Combat.

Basically, with the newer version, if I use Wound Poison the 5s/5r/5e cycle does better (by 30+ dps) with Eviscerate than Envenom. If I use Instant Poison, Envenom is slightly better (by ~3 DPS). In the official version of the sheet, there obviously is no Wound Poison option, but the two finishers are within ~0.5 DPS of each other. All other settings are identical.

Was there some change to how Envenom was modeled in the AEP variant? It doesn't seem logical that using Wound would make Envenom worse.

Haven't checked it out, but I think it is due to the 15% increased proc chance having a larger benefit for instant poison.

Going from 20% proc rate to 35% proc rate is a larger increase than 50 to 65%.

Actually Envenom only increases the proc chance of Instant and Deadly poisons. It doesn't do anything at all to Wound Poison. And yes, this explains the observed behavior.

Ah, ok, that makes sense!

There's a cell that actually displays percentage uptime of SnD for your selected cycle. If this is displaying less than 100%, then yes, the sheet would be predicting that you'd be occasionally dropping SnD.

Hello

First time poster here long time lurker,I was wondering if the sheet had been updated to add in the fast main hand changes for mutilate?

sp00n's AEP version of the 0.4.1 BC sheet does. Click here to jump to the post

I assume that by hit cap you are referring to the melee hit cap of 363 (442 w/o precision). Im which case, because of the recent change to WF Totem (16% haste, 20% talented), there are no more extra hits that get proced from this. The old WF Totem basically doubled the value of hit for Rogues, because hit allowed more chances to proc WF, and those WF procs also connected more. Because this is no longer valid, the value of hit has dropped quite a bit, and after the spell hit cap (depending on gear) AGI, AP, and Crit start to match up, or become greater than just Hit. The exact values for when AGI/AP/Crit become better than Hit is completely dependant on gear, and is no set in stone. While hit has beocme devalued a bit, its still useful for getting CP procs, so you still want some hit on your gear.

I have noticed that the 0.41BC version has a strange bug - after some longer period of switching gear, the DPS/stat values all jump to over 30 and stay like that. I have not noticed when exactly this happens though.
I have seen that both on OOfice and MSOffice, and both the original and bugfixed version.
It's a bit of a bugger, because when I don't notice that and save the sheet, it gets saved too, and to fix it I have to start from a clean sheet and reinsert all the gear again.
Gaah, I am so spoiled by the 'import armory' option...

What exactly do you mean, e.g. what cells show the bug?

I was curious about this as well. I've entered each piece into the sheet individually but I wasn't sure how to enter in the set bonus (and where exactly to enter it). I know you can switch the target type to Undead so it shouldn't be too hard to throw in a 6% boost, if that indeed is how the set works.

Did some testing in EPL with instant poisons. The tooltip indicated 333 damage IPs, but they were hitting for 364. I had 3% bonus from Echoes of Lordaeron, and the entire undead slaying set. If all of the set bonuses and the buff stack additively, we would have expected the poison to hit for 363. If all of these bonuses stack multiplicatively, 364 is right on the mark. Unless I'm missing a source of extra damage, it would appear that all of the Undead Slaying set bonuses stack multiplicatively, meaning you actually gain MORE than 6% bonus against undead if you wear the whole set. Not trivial at all! I can honestly see myself wearing this stuff when I start Naxx at 80, though it may get replaced rather quickly thereafter.

That does not sound statistically definative for multaplicative stacking. The damage between the two alternatives is too close when applied to 333 damage:

333*1.03*(1.01*1.02*1.03) = 363.94 ~ 364

333*1.03*(1.01+1.02+1.03) = 363.5694

333*1.03+(1.01+1.02+1.03) = 362.97

So the nature of the set buffs is unclear, in this case, without also knowing the nature of the set buffs interaction with the zone buff. A test without the zone buff would still not be definative at 333 damage. We would need a test wtih a larger source of damage to determine a difference between 1.06 and 1.061106.

Or one where case 1 and case 2 do not round to the same integer.
WoW is rounding and not ceiling/flooring, is it?

Yes, I find myself agreeing with you. There is plenty of doubt as to whether the set bonuses are additive or multiplicative, but the difference is small and at the very least we know that they stack to at least 6% total.

If I remember correctly, WoW rounds up.

Well 'rounding up' means ceiling, as in 125.1 becomes 126.

For this example to work then, case 1 and 2 would require different integers to begin with to be certain.
Just as an example, for a difference of 1 damage point in both cases, the starting value (333 here) would need to be 878, for which you'd need a ridiculous amount of AP (7170 resp. 6630).
Also note that Instant Poison has a base damage range from 161 to 215.

However, speccing into Vile Poisons could clear things up a bit, depending on where the 20% damage increase comes into play. With those 333 base damage, the difference between case 1 and 2 would then be already over 4 damage points.

PS: the formula for case 2 is wrong. It should be 333*1.03*(1+0.01+0.02+0.03) = 363.5694.


// Edit
Just wrote a bit php code.
I chose Wound Poison because of the fixed base damage and did not select vile poisons. The bonus damage from the tower buff was still applied.

If the numbers are ceiled, we have a difference of 1 damage point from formula 1 and 2 with the following AP values:

bDam	c1 & c2	AP
173	190 > 189	1525
174	191 > 190	1550
183	201 > 200	1775
184	202 > 201	1800
185	203 > 202	1825
194	213 > 212	2050
195	214 > 213	2075
196	215 > 214	2100
205	225 > 224	2325
206	226 > 225	2350

If the numbers are rounded, we have a difference of 1 damage point from formula 1 and 2 with the following AP values:

bDam	c1 & c2	AP
167	183 > 182	1375
168	184 > 183	1400
178	195 > 194	1650
179	196 > 195	1675
189	207 > 206	1925
190	208 > 207	1950
200	219 > 218	2200
201	220 > 219	2225
210	230 > 229	2450
211	231 > 230	2475

There are actually a lot more AP values where that happens, so I limited it to between 1300 and 2500 AP.


If you'd could check with one of these values for both rounded and ceiled, I think we should know more.

I have a question regarding the Roguecraft BC 0.4.1.AEP.bugfixed spreadsheet.

Just last night Illidan was kind enough to drop his main hand Warglaive. I currently have Season 2 Quickblade and Fang of Kalecgos as possible offhand weapons.

As for my question, is it correct that Fang of Kalecgos is actually better if I use a DP/Wound setup. I lose DPS if I simply switch my poisons to Wound/DP.

I currently have the spreadsheet configured with 5/55/5. I simply leave the sheet with 4/5 CQC and 5/5 Sword Spec as I don't think it would affect the numbers even if I had two swords equipped.

(DP/Wound) Wargliave of Azzinoth/Fang of Kalecgos = 2814.14
(DP/Wound) Wargliave of Azzinoth/Merc Quickblade = 2809.04

(Wound/DP) Wargliave of Azzinoth/Fang of Kalecgos = 2814.39
(Wound/DP) Wargliave of Azzinoth/Merc Quickblade = 2814.58

Now I that I've read what I typed, I suppose my question is, Which poison setup should I use?

I raise this question because many rogues insist that Wound should always go on the weapon that lands more often.

I don't understand your question. You're saying (Wound/DP) Warglaive of Azzinoth/Merc Quickblade gives you best DPS in the spreadsheet, yet you wish to know whether or not that poison setup is correct? What's important is that it's seems to be correct for you (assuming you filled in everything else proper, e.g. cycles)

Considering that the 4 points from CQC could go in utility talents somewhere else if you use the sword offhand and it shows as highest DPS anyway, why not?

I am noticing a strange occurrence with the spreadsheet. When I change the target type from Demon to anything else I see a drop of about 150 DPS. I am Combat Swords in T5/badge gear so no Warglaive set bonus and no murder. I cannot seem to find anything else that would merit this drop. Any ideas on what may be causing this?

Demonslaying Elixir?