To simplify the comparison just answer me why when using two weapons with same dps but different speeds (like omen of ruin and titansteel shanker) will be better to put the faster on MH? Assuming Fast weapons aways with IP and slower with DP.
Because the extra IP damage from finishers is greater than the Mutilate damage lost by putting your slower dagger in the OH. And you always put IP on the faster weapon.
I know our primary obj. is to reach the spell hit and the exp cap. Then we go for agi/crit/ap (talking as a Mutilate Rogue).
At this point I am far away from both the spell hit and the exp cap, and I still get weird results consulting the spreadsheet, as it suggests gemming my gear with +32 AP gems rather then with hit, exp or hit+exp gems (socket bonuses are considered!). And now I am asking me: Why? It's totally off from saying: get hit and exp first.
The 'caps' for both expertise and hit are just numbers. They are nothing more than that. They are not something that you absolutely 100% need to have, they are just there as reference. You do not need to go all out of your way just to reach the caps, because it may end up (and usually does if you're being that tunnel-visioned) gimping the rest of your stats. In your case, it would seem like gemming for AP is of greater benefit than gemming for just hit/exp.
The 'caps' for both expertise and hit are just numbers. They are nothing more than that. They are not something that you absolutely 100% need to have, they are just there as reference. You do not need to go all out of your way just to reach the caps, because it may end up (and usually does if you're being that tunnel-visioned) gimping the rest of your stats. In your case, it would seem like gemming for AP is of greater benefit than gemming for just hit/exp.
While it's true that caps aren't target figures by any means, the expertise cap is particularly useful to hit for a Mutilate spec because of the cycle stability in avoiding dodged Envenoms while trying to refresh SnD through CttC. I also believe it was found that hit until the poison cap was a very powerful stat for the spec as well, but it's also quite easy to reach that cap without gemming for it.
A few cooldown items changed in this most recent patch (3.0.8); specifically: Fire Leaf, which no longer exists; and Hyperspeed Accelerators, which is now 10 seconds every minute. There may also be others that I don't know about. I tried to fix this myself but it looks like you have duplicate data in the "Cooldowns #" sheets, and I couldn't figure out how those sheets work anyway so I didn't really want to mess with it too much.
Also, could we get [Enchanted Tear] added to the Gems page? It's still superior (by a teeny tiny bit) to any purple or green, even if [Shifting Twilight Opal] were finally implemented. Enchant Bracers - Striking appears to be missing as well.
How so? The EP value of STR should go from 1.09-1.1 always as we don't really have any modifier other then kings for that. That makes the 6 STR on [Enchanted Tear] worth 6.54 EP.
16 - 6.54 = 9.46
So for the 6 AGI in the [Enchanted Tear] has to be worth less then 9.54 EP which can only be accomplished at 1.57 EP which is ridiculously low for AGI and should never occur unless at extremely low levels of gear where you have 0 hit and 0 exp etc. I maybe screwing up math here but I am pretty sure enchanted tear is the best blue gem for any non JC.
I know our primary obj. is to reach the spell hit and the exp cap. Then we go for agi/crit/ap (talking as a Mutilate Rogue).
At this point I am far away from both the spell hit and the exp cap, and I still get weird results consulting the spreadsheet, as it suggests gemming my gear with +32 AP gems rather then with hit, exp or hit+exp gems (socket bonuses are considered!). And now I am asking me: Why? It's totally off from saying: get hit and exp first.
In short: the full advantages (in terms of cycle stability and energy pooling) of being expertise capped are not well-modeled; hence, spreadsheets tend to underestimate the value of expertise somewhat. Similarly, the poison restacking model in this sheet is not as sophisticated as it might be, hence the value of spell hit is perhaps slightly underestimated as well.
Fundamentally: there is a belief based on estimates outside this spreadsheet that expertise capping and spell hit capping are advantageous for reasons beyond those modeled in the sheet, which is why conventional wisdom holds that it is a reasonable goal even though the sheet does not reflect that. Note, however, that this does not mean that they should be capped at any cost; it's simply a case that capping them is slightly more important than one might infer from looking at this sheet.
Anyone able to work some numbers for how long it takes a fast MH/slow OH to overtake a slow MH/fast OH. I understand that the fast dagger goes in the MH for more instant poison chances, but I'm wondering roughly how long (in seconds) it takes so that it will make up for the lost mutilate damage.
For example... I have anarchy and webbed death.
In a longer fight, WD(IP)/Anarchy(DP) will do better than An(DP)/WD(IP)
However, when I'm doing dailies it's much better to have An(DP)/WD(IP)
What about a 30-45 second boss fight for heroics? (or say... Sapphrion)
EDIT: BTW the spreadsheet doesn't work well on extremely short fights.
They're extremely close, it's true, but I'm pretty sure the Tear is better in all but the very worst of low-AP situations. Look at it this way: imagine you had a Twilight Opal that gave 8 Sta, 4 Agi, and 8AP, halfway between Balanced and Shifting (not that Shifting actually exists). Over this theoretical gem, a Tear gives 2.2 Agi for the cost of 1.4 AP not counting Agi->AP and 2.2 Sta (all assuming Blessing of Kings, which I'm pretty sure we all have enabled). I'm certainly happy to make that trade. If you prefer Agi to AP (which I don't right now, but whatever), the Tear gets even better; if you prefer AP to Agi, Balanced is slightly stronger than normal but the Tear still comes out on top. The only time I can imagine it wouldn't is if the Tear puts you just barely on the fail side of rounding errors from Blessing of Kings for both Agi and Str, in which case you are just unlucky.
I have another question. The spreadsheet suggests my best cycle is 3s/5r/4e (as combat swords). I find that I can generally maintain this when I don't space out and go to 5e, but sometimes 4e leaves me a little limp-wristed trying to get back up to 3 for another SnD. Is this just because I am getting unlucky on Combat Potency/Relentless Strikes/Ruthlessness/Glyph of SS procs sometimes? I also find that I sometimes end up with a perfectly good 4s/5r/5e/5r rotation stuck in sometimes if I get a ton of procs, and then there's my AR cycle which is always around 3s/5r/5e/4e. I know the spreadsheet basically averages energy regen out over all the effects that would make a difference, so I'm wondering, is there anything I can do to make up for the spasticness of Combat energy regen to make my observed results better match this sheet? Or have I just hit the limits of a theorycraft tool which isn't a simulation, and I should go offer coding services to Rawr.Rogue?
Problem I've run into that might just be a brain fart on my part but I can't seem to figure out what to do...
I tried to test out combat dps using the spreadsheet, filled in the necessary spec combo point builder and gear. When I go to select any of the 2 part cycles (other than cttc) I get an error in every single dps box. I've tried it with a redownloaded sheet and I still get it for some reason. I'm using open office if it matters.
Anyone able to work some numbers for how long it takes a fast MH/slow OH to overtake a slow MH/fast OH. I understand that the fast dagger goes in the MH for more instant poison chances, but I'm wondering roughly how long (in seconds) it takes so that it will make up for the lost mutilate damage.
Don't think in terms of time, think in terms of the ratio of finishers to mutilates, because that's what matters. The two effects playing off against each other are:
1) Mutilate hits harder if you put the slow/DP in main hand and fast/IP in off hand
2) IP procs from finishers mean you do more damage with fast/IP in main hand and slow/DP in off hand.
What the spreadsheet tells you is that in sustained play, the ratio of mutilates to finishers is such that the second factor outweighs the first. If the fight is such that you use comparatively more mutilates and fewer finishers, then that might reverse, and you should swap the weapons over.
HOWEVER, mutilate play accumulates combo points so fast that the ratio of builder to finisher is basically static from the moment you start cycling. Thus, the only time you should consider swapping weapons over is if the mob you're fighting will die on the first finisher, since (a) that's the only time the ratio of builders/finishers is favourable, and (b) a poison proc from the finisher is likely to be overkill and thus wasted. In such fights you should be using dual IP anyway, with the slow weapon in the main hand for larger Ambushes and Mutilates.
I have another question. The spreadsheet suggests my best cycle is 3s/5r/4e (as combat swords). I find that I can generally maintain this when I don't space out and go to 5e, but sometimes 4e leaves me a little limp-wristed trying to get back up to 3 for another SnD. Is this just because I am getting unlucky on Combat Potency/Relentless Strikes/Ruthlessness/Glyph of SS procs sometimes? I also find that I sometimes end up with a perfectly good 4s/5r/5e/5r rotation stuck in sometimes if I get a ton of procs, and then there's my AR cycle which is always around 3s/5r/5e/4e. I know the spreadsheet basically averages energy regen out over all the effects that would make a difference, so I'm wondering, is there anything I can do to make up for the spasticness of Combat energy regen to make my observed results better match this sheet? Or have I just hit the limits of a theorycraft tool which isn't a simulation, and I should go offer coding services to Rawr.Rogue?
From my experience, it's generally not a good idea to maximize spreadsheet DPS based on an extremely tight cycle. I imagine that the cycle time the sheet is showing you is very close to the actual duration of your 3s. While that works great on the spreadsheet because energy gain and procs are distributed evenly, it will almost certainly cause you to drop SnD in practice when either CP or your Glyph are not cooperating.
From my experience, it's generally not a good idea to maximize spreadsheet DPS based on an extremely tight cycle. I imagine that the cycle time the sheet is showing you is very close to the actual duration of your 3s. While that works great on the spreadsheet because energy gain and procs are distributed evenly, it will almost certainly cause you to drop SnD in practice when either CP or your Glyph are not cooperating.
Furtermore, if you are running tests by yourself you will not be buffed. I find then when I am running things against a dummy by myself, I cannot maintain a 4s/5r/5e (my optimized combat rotation) on a regular basis. However, in raid I usually find myself with extra time on my hands.
In your next version of the spreadsheet, would it be possible to add a Xe/Yr/Ze (CttC) rotation (or a similar variant)? This comes closer to what I am actually able to pull off than the Xe/Yr that I use to model right now.
In your next version of the spreadsheet, would it be possible to add a Xe/Yr/Ze (CttC) rotation (or a similar variant)? This comes closer to what I am actually able to pull off than the Xe/Yr that I use to model right now.
What on earth does that even mean? the Xe/Yr (CTTC) model refers to the use of envenom with 4 or more CP's, unless rupture has fallen off (or is about to, in which case, pool->rupture), unless Slice and Dice is about to run out. This will on average, result in 1-2 envenoms between ruptures, requiring 1 mutilate each - sometimes they take 2, and that's accounted for in the model, and sometimes there's time for a third envenom, and that's also accounted for. What are you trying to see modeled exactly that varies from this?
In the strictest sense Xe/Yr abbreviation has never meant 'one R for as many E as your cycle allows you to pull off before the next R' and has meant 'one E then one R then one E then one R then one ect.' If the sheet already treats 'Xe/Yr (CttC)' as being capable of weaving as many envenoms in as possible then it already does what kmannkoopa is asking for it to do, this mechanic certainly isn't evident from the cycle names though.
Was bored, so I decided to mess around with various builds on the spreadsheet for combat, particularly a comparison with combat daggers/swords and combat fist/sword.
The highest I was able to get fist/sword was 5127.41 dps with the following setup:
The highest combat dagger build was 5106.50 with:
sinister revenge/hailstorm (5086 with sr/webbed death) 18/51/2
5s/4r
rupture/snd/bf
I had to mess around with a weird build and cycle to get combat dagger that high, so I suspect it will be a little off in actual play since the cycle is so tight, but the results are still interesting.
There's only a 0.4% difference between the two setups, and I'd imagine backstab cycles would be easier to play optimally than a 3 finisher ss cycle.
Situations where I could see this being useful would be if plenty of good daggers have dropped for a raid but no good fist weapons, in which case it might be more beneficial to the raid for one rogue to go combat daggers instead of combat swords/fist/etc with inferior weapons.
In the strictest sense Xe/Yr abbreviation has never meant 'one R for as many E as your cycle allows you to pull off before the next R' and has meant 'one E then one R then one E then one R then one ect.' If the sheet already treats 'Xe/Yr (CttC)' as being capable of weaving as many envenoms in as possible then it already does what kmannkoopa is asking for it to do, this mechanic certainly isn't evident from the cycle names though.
Please do not confuse a short post for a simple/idiotic post. From the spreadsheet's point of view Xe/Yr (CttC) means exaclty that. I made sure to verify this before I posted. In its current form, it says that my cycle length is 17.91. Multiplying my cycle length times my Envenom DPS, I get 4538 (based on 10-man buffs). That value looks mysteriously like one envenom to me. And as many Rogues can tell you, in a standard boss fight, you can often do more than one envenom before the rupture resets.
Also considering that 17.91s also looks very close to one 4 point rupture (which is what my Y is set for), the spreadsheet is calculating the damage of one rupture and one envenom along with the appropriate number of mutilate hits and DPS of white damage -- exactly what it is designed to do. To throw in another envenom would take a Xe/Yr/Ze (CttC) or similar to account for this.
Compare sometime the number of Ruptures to the number of Envenoms done in a WWS. In the sample I just brought up, I did 63 Envenoms versus 35 Ruptures. Almost, but not quite twice as much. That is why I posted what I posted.
I simply quoted your post Tetracycloide because it had something worth quoting.
Last edited by Kmannkoopa : 01/27/09 at 9:55 AM.
Reason: Mispelling (first) Responding to Below (second)
When I set up 2 points into Savage Combat, will this also enable the 2% physical damage buff or does this only account for the 4% increased AP and I need to enable the 2% on the buffs page myself?
Was bored, so I decided to mess around with various builds on the spreadsheet for combat, particularly a comparison with combat daggers/swords and combat fist/sword.
The highest I was able to get fist/sword was 5127.41 dps with the following setup:
The highest combat dagger build was 5106.50 with:
sinister revenge/hailstorm (5086 with sr/webbed death) 18/51/2
5s/4r
rupture/snd/bf
I had to mess around with a weird build and cycle to get combat dagger that high, so I suspect it will be a little off in actual play since the cycle is so tight, but the results are still interesting.
There's only a 0.4% difference between the two setups, and I'd imagine backstab cycles would be easier to play optimally than a 3 finisher ss cycle.
Situations where I could see this being useful would be if plenty of good daggers have dropped for a raid but no good fist weapons, in which case it might be more beneficial to the raid for one rogue to go combat daggers instead of combat swords/fist/etc with inferior weapons.
You must be missing something for fist/sword
Highest i have gotten: 5299.88 dps
Calamity's/hailstorm
4pc + Chestguard of the Recluse
Grim Toll/Darkmoon: Greatness
Cycle: 4s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture/Evis/SS
Spec: 15/51/5
Not really an issue but on the buffs sheet, it has BoK as 10% always. It's actually 2% per talent point, up to 5 talent points. I don't think anyone who raid would ever have less than the full 10%, but for accuracy's sake I mention it.
You must be missing something for fist/sword
Highest i have gotten: 5299.88 dps
Calamity's/hailstorm
4pc + Chestguard of the Recluse
Grim Toll/Darkmoon: Greatness
Cycle: 4s/5r/5e
Glyphs: Rupture/Evis/SS
Spec: 15/51/5
I'm not sure what I could be missing to account for 170 lost dps. I'm using the same gear set, except using a 3/5/5 cycle and snd glyph instead of eviscerate, since eviscerate glyph lowers the dps for me.
I double checked to ensure all the buffs were enabled as well.
Fight duration maybe? I'm using 300, and not using tricks on cd.
Was bored, so I decided to mess around with various builds on the spreadsheet for combat, particularly a comparison with combat daggers/swords and combat fist/sword.
The highest I was able to get fist/sword was 5127.41 dps with the following setup:
The highest combat dagger build was 5106.50 with:
sinister revenge/hailstorm (5086 with sr/webbed death) 18/51/2
5s/4r
rupture/snd/bf
I had to mess around with a weird build and cycle to get combat dagger that high, so I suspect it will be a little off in actual play since the cycle is so tight, but the results are still interesting.
There's only a 0.4% difference between the two setups, and I'd imagine backstab cycles would be easier to play optimally than a 3 finisher ss cycle.
Situations where I could see this being useful would be if plenty of good daggers have dropped for a raid but no good fist weapons, in which case it might be more beneficial to the raid for one rogue to go combat daggers instead of combat swords/fist/etc with inferior weapons.
Your post has gotten me interested in combat daggers (mutilate is too much work :P) for raiding. I don't have the spreadsheet at work so I have to take your word for it but not having relentless strikes seems odd to me. In TBC at least combat daggers was always energy-starved and losing RS seems like it would just compound the problem :X
01/21/09, 11:00 PM
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