I'm guessing there's something else wrong with your settings on the spreadsheet if you're seeing those results. When I set the x/y both to 4, rupture is doing about 60 more dps than envenom for me.
There's nothing wrong with the spreadsheet, however the OP is simply not looking at his total DPS. Instead he is looking at the Envenom and Rupture DPS and adding these together. This neglects:
* all white damage
* all Mutilate damage
* all IP damage
* all DP damage
This is obvious from the fact that he's quoting his "total DPS" as around 500, which would have been pretty pathetic back in Molten Core.
Edit: Ah, I see your point in that Rupture is just generally low. I'd guess that's the Mangle buff being unticked or something similar.
Edit: Ah, I see your point in that Rupture is just generally low. I'd guess that's the Mangle buff being unticked or something similar.
Yep. I'm guessing there's something more, since I can't even get my rupture dps down to 200 even if I turn off mangle *and* blood spatter. Maybe he has all buffs turned off?
@tetracycloide: You explained both problems, thank you. I didn't even think of the crit reduction, and obviously that's always been in effect, I just never spent enough time on the DPS tab nor changed things around enough to actually notice. The second problem just boils down to me needing to learn how to read.
how do you add items to the spreadsheet?
my main hand wep has titanium weapon chain, this is not in the options,also there is no option to not have a trinket equiped.
i have just started using the spreadsheet so these are minor observations, and not critasism
how do you add items to the spreadsheet?
my main hand wep has titanium weapon chain, this is not in the options,also there is no option to not have a trinket equiped.
i have just started using the spreadsheet so these are minor observations, and not critasism
Don't bother using the sheet to simulate PvP damage.
The Weapon Chain is clearly inferior to so many other enchants that it is not modeled in the sheet (since we are talking about optimizing DPS here). You can quickly model it by choosing accuracy and editing the buffs in the cells to 0 Crit and the right amount of hit.
1. My character sheet shows 25.xx% crit, the spreadsheet says it's 22.xx%, without any buffs.
2. I'm using 2 LPCs both with mongoose; character sheet says speed is 1.23/1.23, spreadsheet tells me 1.3/.94, once again without any buffs at all.
I'm assuming you're reading your crit % in the spreadsheet from DPS!C5 which includes the crit reduction against boss level mobs (-4.x% if I remember correctly) in addition to crit gains from procs like mongoose. Neither effect is reflected on the LCS (lying character sheet).
The weapon speed differences leave me baffled. With two librarian's paper cutters equipped I cannot create a situation where the speeds are different from one another. It makes sense that the LCS would say they're slower than they are because it doesn't factor in slice'n'dice or other buffs/cooldowns but it makes no sense that the spread sheet would have two different values for the weapon speed. Are you sure you are reading the right cells? 1.3 is the base speed for the weapon and it should show up in DPS!F1 and DPS!F3 while the adjusted speeds, for which .94 is not an unreasonable value, should appear in DPS!G1 and DPS!G3. It almost sounds like you're reading the values from one row across instead of reading them as columns.
Last edited by tetracycloide : 02/02/09 at 2:58 PM.
There's nothing wrong with the spreadsheet, however the OP is simply not looking at his total DPS. Instead he is looking at the Envenom and Rupture DPS and adding these together. This neglects:
* all white damage
* all Mutilate damage
* all IP damage
* all DP damage
This is obvious from the fact that he's quoting his "total DPS" as around 500, which would have been pretty pathetic back in Molten Core.
Edit: Ah, I see your point in that Rupture is just generally low. I'd guess that's the Mangle buff being unticked or something similar.
I was neglecting white and mutilate damage because it shouldnt matter for my question, and when I said total DPS i was referring to the total dps rupture and envenom added to my cycle. And I wasnt referring to the total dps tab, but the cells in the cycle tab prior to their increase by raid buffs.
Leto, I looked at the total dps, when you said that, more closely and realized i wasnt looking closely enough at the dps of those abilities after their respective modifiers in raids. Thanks for the help
However, let me try to rephrase my original question. Although rupture and envenom add roughly 750 dps to my cycles, my poisons are over 900 dps. And if you look closely at the cycles tab of the spreadsheet there is a significant drop in envenom buff uptime between 4e/1r and 4e/2r from 58% to 37% then back to 40% at 4e/4r. Which makes perfect sense given the general wisdom of mutilate cycles.
But it also makes me wonder, If I am mutilating once to twice on a 4e/4r cycle, im losing roughly 20% envenom buff uptime. But if I mutilate only once for rupture then do my typical rotation of 4+cp for Envenom, I gain that 20% back. So in the duration of a fight, say 5 minutes or 300 seconds, I go from roughly 120 seconds of 15% increased poison application to 180 seconds. Is it possible, that (due to the envenom buffs importance not being modeled exactly yet) I actually gain more dps from my poisons than I would lose from rupture damage.
Edit: I also think that looking at the envenom buff uptime exactly as the spreadsheet lists it is misleading due to natural variables that affect your cycle (IE focused attacks, relentless strikes, etc). But the question remains the same regarding how the envenom buff should be viewed.
I was neglecting white and mutilate damage because it shouldnt matter for my question,
Of course it matters. If you're doing 1 point finishers (e.g. your 1r/4e cycle), you are wasting large amounts of energy that would otherwise be spent on Mutilates. You are also using DP faster than you can stack it, meaning your DP damage also goes down. Thus, while you do indeed gain some benefit from a higher uptime of the Envenom buff, you are greatly reducing your Mutilate damage, your Rupture damage and your DP damage, meaning it is a bad choice of cycle.
Originally Posted by Grizvok
Is it possible, that I actually gain more dps from my poisons than I would lose from rupture damage.
You can find the answer to this question by looking at the "Total DPS" cell on the spreadsheet. That's what it's for. And I can assure you that the Envenom buff is modelled in the spreadsheet, along with all the other factors you're neglecting.
Hey all. This is my first time posting on the forums, though I've read them quite frequently in the past.
I've raided with my rogue previously, both in classic and TBC WoW, but with WotLK I've decided to take it quite seriously. To that effect I've recently begun using the roguecraft spreadsheet, and I have to say, it's quite a piece of work.
However, I'm not entirely sure that I'm using it correctly. Either this or I'm massively failing at playing my rogue, because the DPS the spreadsheet says I should be doing is massively higher than the DPS I'm actually doing. I'm mutilate specced, 51/13/7, and at my highest I'm doing somewhere in the ballpark of 2500dps in 10-man Naxxramas. I feel like I'm playing my spec pretty well - HfB is always up, SnD is always up, and it's rare that I let rupture lapse at all on my target. I've got LPC in my MH with IP, Namlak's (that a guildie found and gave to me) in my OH with DP. With all my gear in the spreadsheet, gemmed and enchanted like it is, and raid buffs matching up to my usual raid composition in 10-man Naxxramas, the spreadsheet says I should be doing something like 3300dps. This is higher than anyone in my raid puts out except for exceptional periods and leaves me quite confused.
So, is there perhaps a setting I've neglected in the spreadsheet, or am I just not playing well? The latter is entirely possible, I might add.
Thanks for any insight you might have, and please be gentle. It's my first post!
Make sure you set the buffs correctly. The defaults assume a 25-man raid with every buff available.
Once you have the sheet set correctly, you should be able to meet/exceed it's projection on fights like Patchwerk.
First of all, I've asked a few questions in the past here and I just want to say thank you for the answers. Some of the questions are pretty damn esoteric so I'm relieved (but not surprised) people knew what I was talking about.
Anyway..
I have a few questions that the current spreadsheet isn't modeled for.
First of all, when we raid we do not have a prot warrior in our 25 mans so we are not getting sunders. Because of this, I have considered using expose armor in the future. I run a typical 51-13-7 spec.
Assuming I use expose armor in my mutilate rotation, lets get the obvious out of the way first: it'll be glyphed for 10 extra seconds.
I've been spending a lot of time on the dummy and have found that my DPS is higher when expose armor is in my rotation, which I have found to be interesting. This is from a series of 3 million+ damage grinds. At the lowest it's been about 15 DPS better, at the most about 70. I was pretty surprised with these results, and hope it doesn't have to do with skill or something else I'm doing wrong.
I've found it better to use expose > rupture when both are down, because it's much easier to rotate in a 40 second debuff. I'm not positive on that though. It gets tricky managing all 3 CDs, and there are times when it gets sloppy. I've found that once EA is up though, it's easier to fit in a rupture later as opposed to EA later.
The big question though is which talents to use with this rotation.
Ruthlessness is worth the least amount of DPS for a talent that can be played with. Is it worth dropping points in it for imp EA? I'm not sure whether 3/3 ruthlessness or 1/3 ruthlessness + 2/2 imp EA is better. I only did one round of each to 3 million and didn't find a big difference, but one test means RNG is in play.
Are there plans to work in a CTTC slice/rupture/EA or CTTC slice/EA/rupture rotation? Has anyone else ever experimented with this? Maybe I missed something, I wouldn't be surprised.
Expose Armor does indeed increase your personal DPS if it is the only source of the major armor reduction debuff (e.g. when training on a dummy). However, it will always be more effective for a warrior of any spec to sunder armor, rather than you using Expose Armor. Thus, the only time you should use Expose Armor is if there is no warrior in the party. In that circumstance, you MUST use Expose Armor.
However, if you are commonly run without a warrior, you really would do much better to spec combat than Mutilate. Mutilate specs are even worse than Combat at keeping up EA, due to the need to use 5-point finishers and the impossibility of reliably keeping up all of EA, Rupture and S'n'D (via Envenom/CttC).
Expose Armor does indeed increase your personal DPS if it is the only source of the major armor reduction debuff (e.g. when training on a dummy). However, it will always be more effective for a warrior of any spec to sunder armor, rather than you using Expose Armor. Thus, the only time you should use Expose Armor is if there is no warrior in the party. In that circumstance, you MUST use Expose Armor.
However, if you are commonly run without a warrior, you really would do much better to spec combat than Mutilate. Mutilate specs are even worse than Combat at keeping up EA, due to the need to use 5-point finishers and the impossibility of reliably keeping up all of EA, Rupture and S'n'D (via Envenom/CttC).
Is it really impossible though?
This is all napkin math, so obviously many corners cut:
Three finishers (4,4,5) which we'd need to get through in 30 seconds* to keep EA up full time (obviously the second priority after SnD, but if 100% uptime can't be achieved, what's the point, right?). In 30 seconds we'll generate 300 energy from normal regen, and about 110*crit rate (assuming two fast daggers) energy from focused attacks. With a 40% crit rate this is about 44 energy in 30 seconds.
Worst case you'll need 7 mutilates (will probably need 5-6 on average but we'll go with 7.) which costs 399 energy + 3 finishers (70 energy) + Hunger For Blood (30 energy) for a total of 499 energy, which is far above the expected budget of 344~ energy.
But this is excluding all extra CP procs and any relentless strikes procs; so if you consider a more likely scenario (2 relentless strike, and extra CP procs that fall out such that you need only 6 mutilates) we've now generated 399~ energy and require ~440energy; which is still probably too far - but should be attainable in another tier or two with increasing crit rate.
When I have to do this sometimes as 51+/x/x at current gear levels, I usually just do a 4+a instead of 5a in the cycle if the RNG doesn't go my way; but another option would be to only use rupture opportunistically (similar to extra envenoms in a more standard CttC cycle). I'm not sure which is better.
*pre-supposes you spent talent points / glyphed in such a way that your 5pt duration SnD is at least 30 seconds long. including the improved EA cost talents, this is probably 4 talent points different than a typical HfB setup.
So, the thing is, average-case doesn't tell the whole story here. Looking at my Envenom/Rupture cycle: sometimes I can get 3 envenoms between ruptures. Sometimes I only get one. And I think the same thing would happen here - sometimes you'll have plenty of CP to do all the finishers you want to, and sometimes... you won't. In practice, I suspect this is not even remotely a "cycle" in any traditional sense - you run Envenom/Expose for the most part, and weave in a Rupture when you get some cycle luck such that both Expose and SnD have lots of time left and you have surplus CP. But as this is no longer a cycle in any sense of the word, it's hard to model in a spreadsheet - and, frankly, it's going to be hard to play, too. In all but the most DPS-limited fights, I suspect you're better off just running Envenom/Expose and punting on Rupture - even without expose rupturing gains you a couple of percent DPS, and since you'll have a lot fewer of them this would be even less. And under most circumstances, I suspect the risk of dropping SnD or Expose to squeeze out 50 DPS with Ruptures is just not worth it.
Three finishers (4,4,5) which we'd need to get through in 30 seconds* to keep EA up full time (obviously the second priority after SnD)
Priority for EA is MUCH higher than SnD, HfB, or indeed anything else. It's something like a 20% buff to all physical non-bleed DPS. With any normal raid composition, the EA debuff will contribute more than your entire personal DPS. A few seconds' loss of S'n'D or even HfB is utterly immaterial in comparison.
Even though I do run with prot warriors in 25 mans there are plenty of scenarios in which I find myself running an "Expose Armor Cycle" simply because the prot warriors are on other targets (Instructor Razuvius for example). The scenario described by Aldriana is fairly typical of my experience of running a CttC EA cycle. There will be times where I find that I have lots of SnD and EA time and 4 CPs so I weave in a rupture. I have found that operating with a priority tree for keeping up EA is something along the lines of:
1. Keep up HfB
2. Keep up a 5 point Expose Armor
3. Keep SnD up (4+ Envenom)
4. Weave in 4+ Rupture when possible
So really, you are adding an extra timer to watch, and that's about it. I admit that I play highly conservatively with the amount of time left on either EA or Envenom when I make the decision to use a rupture or not so I find that I am only weaving in a handful of ruptures which while perhaps only adding a small amount of personal dps at the end is still more dps than not trying to weave one in at all. Not a big deal at the moment, but progression fights are usually a game of inches. I'll also add that given that EA has a zero net energy cost with Relentless strikes, and that I give a very conservative cushion (I usually plan to do an EA as my next finisher if EA has dropped under 15s) to my EA timer that I haven't had too many close calls with HfB dropping.
So while it's perhaps better to let someone else put up the major armor debuff, there are certainly times where you will be the only source, or maybe you're a control freak like me and don't trust anyone else to get the job done. Either way, at least I get a little mileage out of that third major glyph slot every week.
I find dropping Ruthlessness makes maintaining Expose Armor much easier - 1 point in vigor in 2 into imp. EA means that the Expose costs almost nothing, it's easier to pool when the timer runs low, and the frequency of 5 point finishers (which you always want EA to be) is much much higher.
Well, you still use two Mutilates per EA whether you have Ruthlessness or not, so I'm not sure if it's a real DPS gain other than the fact that Imp EA does alleviate the hefty cost a bit. With Ruthlessness, at least you can throw an extra Envenom or Rupture during lucky periods.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
I have a question regarding the spreadsheet in terms of target dummy DPS. I've found that I'm hitting about 90 dps lower than what my spreadsheet says I should without any buffs. I realized that having Turn the Tables filled in in the talent spec was causing the spreadsheet to predict a higher output than what I should be getting on the dummy, but I'm still not quite hitting the mark. I'm basing this on segments of ~ 1 mil. damage of which I did 6 times, and every time I was 80-100 dps lower than predicted. Just wondering if there is anything similar to removing TtT from the spec that I'm overlooking.
Well, you still use two Mutilates per EA whether you have Ruthlessness or not, so I'm not sure if it's a real DPS gain other than the fact that Imp EA does alleviate the hefty cost a bit. With Ruthlessness, at least you can throw an extra Envenom or Rupture during lucky periods.
It's not a DPS gain (may even be a DPS loss), but it is absolutely a sanity gain.
I have a question regarding the spreadsheet in terms of target dummy DPS. I've found that I'm hitting about 90 dps lower than what my spreadsheet says I should without any buffs. I realized that having Turn the Tables filled in in the talent spec was causing the spreadsheet to predict a higher output than what I should be getting on the dummy, but I'm still not quite hitting the mark. I'm basing this on segments of ~ 1 mil. damage of which I did 6 times, and every time I was 80-100 dps lower than predicted. Just wondering if there is anything similar to removing TtT from the spec that I'm overlooking.
Combat duration. Take the average time it takes you to dump that 1 million damage on the dummy and input it(in seconds) into the combat duration cell of the spreadsheet. It's defaulted to 5 minutes(300 seconds). I was having the same issue, as I would cycle for about 15 minutes. As soon as I changed the combat duration to my test length, the numbers started to line up.
Also, and I need confirmation on this. The combat dummy appears to be considered Humanoid, or at least 'murder-able', so Murder talent is taken into consideration.
Combat duration. Take the average time it takes you to dump that 1 million damage on the dummy and input it(in seconds) into the combat duration cell of the spreadsheet. It's defaulted to 5 minutes(300 seconds). I was having the same issue, as I would cycle for about 15 minutes. As soon as I changed the combat duration to my test length, the numbers started to line up.
Also, and I need confirmation on this. The combat dummy appears to be considered Humanoid, or at least 'murder-able', so Murder talent is taken into consideration.
Uhh...
Originally Posted by Vulajin
The sheet is not designed to allow any durations above 600. So yes, you will experience errors if you use duration > 600.
Yikes! Cheers for that sp00n, although in experience it has been spot on for a 15 minute cycle for months now. I'll take it again at a 600 second test length and see how it fares.
02/02/09, 11:59 AM
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