The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 45

Laia · 12/10/08, 10:34 AM

I am a bit confused about the numbers the sheet tells me.
Apparently AP gives me more raw DPS then Agility. That feels a bit strange when i think about the weight of the stats. (AP=1, Agi=2)
I noticed that while testing out gems (+20 agi where inferior to +40 AP) and even on enchantments. (Major Agility (+20) is inferior to Greater Assault (+35))
Especially the last statement is very irritating to me.
Does it depend on the gear or am I missing something there?
Can somebody please enlighten me?

Kumar · 12/10/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Laia

I am a bit confused about the numbers the sheet tells me.
Apparently AP gives me more raw DPS then Agility. That feels a bit strange when i think about the weight of the stats. (AP=1, Agi=2)
I noticed that while testing out gems (+20 agi where inferior to +40 AP) and even on enchantments. (Major Agility (+20) is inferior to Greater Assault (+35))
Especially the last statement is very irritating to me.
Does it depend on the gear or am I missing something there?
Can somebody please enlighten me?

Savage Combat increases your total AP by 4%, which would be a contributing factor to the results you are seeing.

Darkwyng · 12/10/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Laia

I am a bit confused about the numbers the sheet tells me.
Apparently AP gives me more raw DPS then Agility. That feels a bit strange when i think about the weight of the stats. (AP=1, Agi=2)
I noticed that while testing out gems (+20 agi where inferior to +40 AP) and even on enchantments. (Major Agility (+20) is inferior to Greater Assault (+35))
Especially the last statement is very irritating to me.
Does it depend on the gear or am I missing something there?
Can somebody please enlighten me?

It seems that most rogues are finding AP is scaling better than Agi for them. I'm not speaking with a huge sense of confidence, but I reckon it's because of Rupture's attack power boost. Blood Spatter talent increases damage of Rupture by 30% (2/2) and Rupture has been for a long time the finisher of choice on boss fights. So maybe that's why.

Brotherbear · 12/10/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Laia

I am a bit confused about the numbers the sheet tells me.
Apparently AP gives me more raw DPS then Agility. That feels a bit strange when i think about the weight of the stats. (AP=1, Agi=2)
I noticed that while testing out gems (+20 agi where inferior to +40 AP) and even on enchantments. (Major Agility (+20) is inferior to Greater Assault (+35))
Especially the last statement is very irritating to me.
Does it depend on the gear or am I missing something there?
Can somebody please enlighten me?

The issue is that the weighting numbers are a general guideline, whereas the spreadsheet advices you based on your actual gear.

Ideal dps is found by maintaining a balance of stats since stat stacking is ineffective. If your crit is very high, but your ap is very low than you will realize greater dps gains by adding pure AP to your current setup rather than Agility (which is effectively a mix of crit/ap).

Which is why the spreadsheet is tremendously more valuable as a guiding tool than EAP. It allows you to model your specific situation in determining ideal enchants/gemming.

Infuria · 12/10/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Laia

I am a bit confused about the numbers the sheet tells me.
Apparently AP gives me more raw DPS then Agility. That feels a bit strange when i think about the weight of the stats. (AP=1, Agi=2)
I noticed that while testing out gems (+20 agi where inferior to +40 AP) and even on enchantments. (Major Agility (+20) is inferior to Greater Assault (+35))
Especially the last statement is very irritating to me.
Does it depend on the gear or am I missing something there?
Can somebody please enlighten me?

...

1 agi = 1 ap (plus a little crit, dodge, armor)

1 agi > 1 ap.

2 ap > 1 agi.

Rotting · 12/10/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by sephfiroth

Because engineering is the most epic fail profession at the moment.

A Crusher or even Precision enchant to gloves would be better than our Haste glove enchant.

The glove rockets are worthless, I first anticipated it to be useful to keeping fleeing rogues in combat and or arcane mages, but realized a simply throw or deadly throw does the same thing.

The nitro boosts seemed useful at first, but most Rogues will be spec'ing for Prep for PvP, and hence have 2 Sprints. Cant think of too many situations where a 3rd semi-sprint would save me.

And thats about it. Aside from saving me a quick T7 helm token, that is surpassed by T7.25, Engie has done absolutely nothing for me, in PvE or PvP.

At this point, the extra HP from Mining or the Lifeblood from Herbalism would be more useful.

As far as the spreadsheet shows for me the haste to gloves tinker is superior to all but crusher last i checked.

The nitro boost will be better than any other boot enchant for pvp(yes they are usable in arena), if you have ever used rocket boots in arenas or have knowledge of how stupidly insane frost mages are now you will know why.

The rocket gloves sucks yes i agree.

Engineering is actually quite profitable also the mote extractor makes me about 5-6 Eternal Fires perday which sell for 80g a piece on my server, that alone makes it a great profession.

To each his own though.

Originally Posted by Vulajin

As useful as the interpretive answer is, the simple and factual reason is just that I forgot it when jotting down the list of professions from memory.

Understandable hehe

Kytrarewn · 12/10/08, 3:03 PM

It strikes me that Slayer's Bracers are bugged in some way on the spreadsheet.

Without any other pieces of Slayer's equipped on the spreadsheet, it's showing as being superior to Thrusting Bands (though inferior to Sinner's Bindings), by a significant 24DPS.

I can't see anything immediately wrong in the stats, and the expertise in either set is not capped.

Granted, moving from a non-Slayer's helm to a Slayer's helm also increased DPS with Slayer's Bracers equipped, but it seems like something must be odd there,

132AP, 38 expertise, 36 hit vs. 91 AP, 18 hit and 17 haste should be a clear-cut upgrade... Only thing I can think is that maybe the haste is just barely enough to make my Deadly Poison generation keep up with my combo point generation:

Slayer's Bracers

White DPS	1568.82	34.75%
Mutilate DPS	879.11	19.47%
Rupture DPS	334.16	7.40%
Envenom DPS	291.54	6.46%
Poison DPS	987.15	21.86%
Other DPS	0.00	0.00%

Thrusting Bands

White DPS	                1552.75
Mutilate DPS	863.56
Rupture DPS	336.46
Envenom DPS	293.18
Poison DPS	                992.80
Other DPS	                0.00

Delta SB - TB

White DPS	16.06837352
Mutilate DPS	15.54613738
Rupture DPS	-2.300000886
Envenom DPS	-1.635534006
Poison DPS	-5.647045136
Other DPS	0

I'm unsure why I'd lose both white and mutilate DPS with the added stats, and only loss of a tiny amount of haste?

Something's wrong here.

saedo · 12/10/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kytrarewn

I'm unsure why I'd lose both white and mutilate DPS with the added stats, and only loss of a tiny amount of haste?

Something's wrong here.

You sure it's not a meta gem req issue?

Kytrarewn · 12/10/08, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by saedo

You sure it's not a meta gem req issue?

That's exactly what it is. The bracers were the only place I had a yellow gem.

Rilias · 12/10/08, 8:56 PM

The Sheet does not contain [Enchanted Tear] which for me ends up beeing the best "blue" gem, assuming it counts as a blue gem for meta-requirements.

Sais · 12/10/08, 10:49 PM

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not with the spreadsheet, but due to recent gear changes, I've dropped to 208 Hit Rating and 105 Expertise rating. I'm a combat spec, 7/51/13, with all Bright Scarlet Rubies, one blue gem and one Pristine Monarch Topaz. But no matter how I change the gems to get back above the Hit/Expertise cap, the spreadsheet says to stick with the gems/enchants/food buffs I am already using. Is is a glitch in the spreadsheet, or should I stay under the caps?

Naswyn · 12/11/08, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sais

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not with the spreadsheet, but due to recent gear changes, I've dropped to 208 Hit Rating and 105 Expertise rating. I'm a combat spec, 7/51/13, with all Bright Scarlet Rubies, one blue gem and one Pristine Monarch Topaz. But no matter how I change the gems to get back above the Hit/Expertise cap, the spreadsheet says to stick with the gems/enchants/food buffs I am already using. Is is a glitch in the spreadsheet, or should I stay under the caps?

Nothing really forces you to hit caps, you just go with whatever increases your DPS. As such, there are no magic numbers you need to attain no matter what. I would say the spreadsheet is correct, Bright Scarlet Rubies are often the best gem (overlooking color) you can use in most situations, you'll get that expertise cap on an optimal piece soon enough, I wouldn't gimp myself just to get it with gems at this stage.

Echophantom · 12/11/08, 2:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sais

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not with the spreadsheet, but due to recent gear changes, I've dropped to 208 Hit Rating and 105 Expertise rating. I'm a combat spec, 7/51/13, with all Bright Scarlet Rubies, one blue gem and one Pristine Monarch Topaz. But no matter how I change the gems to get back above the Hit/Expertise cap, the spreadsheet says to stick with the gems/enchants/food buffs I am already using. Is is a glitch in the spreadsheet, or should I stay under the caps?

Here's the thing - the value of hit starts scaling down once you breach the special cap, to the point where AP probably IS better for you than more hit rating is. No magic numbers means exactly that - no magic numbers. You shouldn't stay above or below any number.

Also, it's called a 'cap' for a reason: it's the absolute highest you should go - above the cap, the stat becomes useless. Nothing more that that.

Rosethorn · 12/11/08, 6:27 AM

When I equip all the best gear a rogue can get into Vulajin's spreadsheet, a rogue without ruthlessness does more dps than a rogue with it.

0/3 Ruthlessness: 5299.58
1/3 Ruthlessness: 5299.09
2/3 Ruthlessness: 5298.98
3/3 Ruthlessness: 5298.86

Something must be wrong with the calcs behind ruthlessness. Can't tell what.

drumbum · 12/11/08, 6:48 AM

I haven't checked to make sure this is exactly what is happening, but I do think I have a plausible explanation for that behavior.

Consider that you are more likely to arrive at exactly 4 combo points when you have Ruthlessness (i.e., a Ruthlessness proc followed by a crit Mutilate). Without the talent, the only way it can happen is when you have two consecutive Mutilates where none of the 4 swings crit, which doesn't occur very often. This means you will be using a slightly higher number of 4-pt finishers with Ruthlessness (assuming you use a 4+ cycle), which could possibly result in a negative trend.

If this behavior occurs with cycles that only allow 5-pt finishers, then it probably demands more attention.