Im specced combat right now and waiting for a WD to drop so I can switch over to mutilate for the main purpose to take advantage of the flat 4% buff when in Uldar. I would really hate for Blizz to decide after Uldar is open to nerf Murder, even though they did Buff it a few patchs ago (if I remember right)

I'm having an issue with adjusting the spreadsheet and I cannot figure out what is wrong. I've tracked it down to this change. I also made the SnD and HfB changes.

Mutilate 150% -> 120%
- Tab "DPS", cell G21: substring "1+0,2*OR" instead of "1+0,5*O

When I make this change double IP becomes better DPS and than IP/DP. When I switch it back, the overall DPS indicates IP/DP is better than double IP. The issue is, I never changed the rest of the formula to make instant poison part of the target being poisoned condition. I even downloaded a new spreadsheet and tried it again. Since you cannot envenom without a poison on the target, I cannot figure out why the spreadsheet comes to this conclusion.

edited per below

Murder will bring you more than 5% DPS actually to the designated mob types. (In the spreadsheet ,more than 6%)

Yeah, after thinking about that I realized I was underestimating the size of those fists of ham.

Try and keep this thread focused on the spreadsheet and related analysis/discussion. General rogue concerns/discussion (especially post-patch) can be taken elsewhere.

Yes you can Mutilate, you cannot Envenom.
But spreadsheet does not test if you have DP to Envenom, so results may be misleading.

My mistake, I did mean envenom. No I didn't realize the spreadsheet assumed for envenom to work DP is present. Thank you!

Will there be an official change to vulajin's spreadsheet reflecting 3.09 anytime soon? If not, do most agree that the formula changes exemplified in recent pages cover the changes? (These include haste to 40 %, mut to 20 % bonus, and hfb to 15 %... All of which net to about 250-300 dps increase for Mut builds 25-buffed)

Never believed it to be the best for my MH weapon, but the best two weapons I currently have is the Maexxna's Femur. Yes, I have one in each hand. I am working on mats and grinding heroics for better weapons. This is not the point of my post. The point is you should be able to put it in your main hand on the spreadsheet. Not all the weapons listed on there are the best choices, it is a debatable point anyway. I am saying for greater accuracy, he should fix it. It is a powerful weapon, not the best, but powerful. I have never created a spreadsheet this complicated, but in my experience with spreadsheets. It is a simple copy and paste fix, I could be wrong. I am trying to help, so please keep your smart &@# remarks to yourself. Are we all as gifted as you, probably not in your opinion.

Since it's a simple copy/paste fix, I would imagine that you could easily fix it yourself. But more to the point: the spreadsheet is not intended to give a comprehensive listing of every possible weapon you can get in either hand; it's intended to list the ones that you're most likely to use. And current theorycraft dictates that there is no reason to use a fast mace in the MH, as such, none are listed. If you disagree with this approach, that's fine, but that *is* the way this - and most other rogue spreadsheets - work.

I personally would prefer any time vulajin spends on spreadsheet be for tweaking the mechanics to ensure the most accurate results then keeping it updated with every possible item a rogue can equip. One of my items was not listed so I simply unhide the worksheet for that item slot, added the item and its stats, then rehide the worksheet.

I'm not sure if just a typo on your part, but DPS-c6 is:

FLOOR(B6/(xpbase*conv),1)+5*twex

not:

FLOOR(B6/(xpbase*conv);1;1)+5*twex

What does your change do, exactly? It increased my dps by 7.74 by SS

Well... that's actually not 100% true. I'm not as good at maths than a lot of the people here so this is me just checking different options at Vulajin's Spreadsheet.

I posted about combat fast Mainhands at least a month ago in this same thread but it didn't catch a lot of attention.

Let's think we have a 2.6 MH a 1.4 MH and a 1.4 OH for each weapon specialization all MH are 171.3 DPS AND Best in Slot Gear.
The weapons wound be:

2.6 Calamity's Grasp (MH)
1.4 Calamity's Grasp (MH)
1.4 Webbed Death (OH)

2.6 Silent Crusader (MH)
1.4 Silent Crusader (MH)
1.4 Hailstorm (OH)

2.6 Angry Dead (MH)
1.4 Angry Dead (MH)
1.4 Split Greathammer (OH)

Forgive me if i'm wrong but inputting in Vulajin's Spreadsheet the following you get:

3.0.9 changes
15/51/5
S&D, Rupture, Sinister Strike Glyphs
3s/5r/5e cycle
WP/WP
Fight duration set to 0
No TotT on cooldown

Calamity's Graps 2.6/Webbed Death 1.4 5296.92 DPS
Calamity's Grasp 1.4/Webbed Death 1.4 5302.57 DPS +0.11%

Silent Crusader 2.6/Hailstorm 1.4 5343.88 DPS
Silent Crusader 1.4/Hailstorm 1.4 5050.10 DPS -0.96%

Angry Dead 2.6/Split Greathammer 1.4 5315.59 DPS
Angry Dead 1.4/Split Greathammer 1.4 5319.02 DPS +0.06%

Calamity's Grasp 2.6/Hailstorm 1.4 5417.73 DPS
Calamity's Grasp 1.4/Hailstorm 1.4 5370.33 DPS -0.94%

Angry Dead 2.6/Hailstorm 1.4 5405.65 DPS
Angry Dead 1.4/Hailstorm 1.4 5356.34 DPS -0.98%

What we see is that the fasters weapons pull very little ahead when there's not a OH sword. And having an OH sword makes a Slow MH the best choice due to the OH proc MH Swing mechanic.

Also, it's interesting to see that Sword/Sword is the best "pure" weapon spec, with maces only a little behind. The buffs in 3.1 will probably put it ahead Swords. We might be forced to have only one weapon spec in 3.1 so could be interesting info.

If i made any mistake please point it, i would like to know if i'm just making stupid checks.

Thanks!

I played around a bit with Vulajin's spreadsheet.

First, for 3.09 I made the previous listed changes to:
- reducing Mutilate bonus from 50% to 20%
- increasing SnD bonus from 30% to 40%
- increases HfB bonus from 9% to 15% (Edit, forgot to add this change)

Second, I made some changes based on what is known (or assumed) for 3.10.
- increased Killing Spree dmg by 20% (in the DPS calc sheet)
DPS Worksheet, cells L21 and M21, multiplied Tot Dmg by 120%
- Reduced CD on Adrenaline Rush from 300 secs to 180 secs (assuming 3 min CD like most other abilities)
DPS Worksheet, cell B43
- increased haste on Mace Spec by 1% per talent point to DPS, DPS Calc 2, DPS Calc 3 Worksheets
In each sheet list above, this was cell C7. Multiplied ending by (1+(1% per talent point))
- Added haste to lightning reflexes. Left it as 5 talent points @ 2% haste per point, in same fashion as Mace Haste changes.

Used the following wpns and rotations (Standard raiding builds)
Mutilate: MH = WD/Instant, OH = Omen/Deadly. Used Xe/Yr (CTTC) cycle.
with my gear was showing 4695.68 dps

Combat CQC: MH = Calamity/Deadly, OH = WD/Wound. Used Xs/Yr/Ze Eviscerate (was higher dps than Envenom). Replaced SnD Glyph for Sinister Strike (sheet showed it as higher dps).
With my gear again, was showing 4899.84 dps.

Basically with my gear and the "most likely" 3.10 changes, if I did things right, Combat DPS would be significantly more powerful than Mutilate (by 204.2 dps). I looked at Mace and Sword builds, but both were inferior to CQC still. Mace was @ 4855.41 dps and Swords were at 4730.13 dps. Neither were mixed wpn specs.

Both cases were assuming undead targets and full raid buffs/debuffs.

I worked up a new AEP scale by manually adjusting the stats on one of the items.

For Mutilate
AP = 1.06
ArP = 1.14
Str = 1.16
Hit = 1.49 (after poison cap)
Haste = 1.50
Crit = 1.51
Agi = 2.0
Expertise = 2.19 (until cap)
Hit = 2.22 (after yellow cap and before poison cap)

For Combat:
AP = 0.98
Str = 1.07
Hit = 1.42 (after poison cap)
ArP = 1.45
Haste = 1.47
Crit = 1.60
Expert = 1.62
Hit = 1.78 (after yellow cap and before poison cap)
Agi = 2.0

With regards to scaling, this is what I have found for scaling.
STR: Mutilate = 0.62590 dps/pt, Combat = 0.64420 dps/pt
AP: Mutilate = 0.56900 dps/pt, Combat = 0.58790 dps/pt
AGI: Mutilate = 1.07610 dps/pt, Combat = 1.20050 dps/pt
HIT: Mutilate = 1.19222 dps/pt, Combat = 1.06656 dps/pt till poison cap
CRIT: Mutilate = 0.81200 dps/pt, Combat = 0.96070 dps/pt
EXPERT: Mutilate = 1.17640 dps/pt, Combat = 0.97529 dps/pt till cap
HASTE: Mutilate = 0.80552 dps/pt, Combat = 0.87940 dps/pt
ArP: Mutilate = 0.61210 dps/pt, Combat = 0.86930 dps/pt

Except for Hit and Expertise, Combat seemed to scale particular better than Mutilate.

Forgot to check on something when doing my tests. That was replacing the Evisc Glyph with AR Glyph. Doing this increased total dps by another 12.5 dps. (4899.84 to 4912.36).

This of course, assumes that AR will go to a 3 min CD and the glyph will stay the same.

What is the easiest way to know where the most current spreadsheet is, and which patch it reflects? I hear about Aldriana's being different than Vulajin's and the only obvious place to get a sheet is on page 1 of "The Roguecraft Spreadsheet", which always shows a relatively old date.

I'm wondering whether the new <two fast weapons ,18/51/2,MH WP / OH IP , xS(Shiv)/yR/zE > model will be more DPS for non-dagger offhand

Don't know if anyone is interested, but some may have noticed that the current version of the spreadsheet does not work correctly with OpenOffice, in particular if you try to look at a Xs/Yr cycle as a combat rogue.

The problem turned out to be that there are some named ranges that have names that are invalid in OpenOffice (specifically sa1, sa2, ...,se1, se2, ..., sr1, sr2, . . .). I have made a version with no other changes than to correct those named ranges and correct the formulas that use them, which fixes the problem. If anyone is interested, let me know and I will be happy to pass it on.

I intentionally went back to the posted version of the sheet (LK version) to make these changes, since I use a modified version of the sheet for myself.

If this has been posted before, I apologize. I did a couple of searches on the thread and found nothing.

Hope this is helpful to someone.

Something is incredibly wrong with this. I believe you changed the weapon speed without changing the damage range. There is no way the extra poison procs of a faster mainhand will make up for the huge amount of extra damage you do through yellow damage.

If you want to test this out properly in game use this example. CQC obviously effects daggers and fists the same, essentially making them the same weapon to a combat rogue. Equip in your mainhand a KT's Reach and a WD in your offhand, go out and see your dps. Now take another WD (If your fortunate enough to have one like I do) and replace KT's Reach in your mainhand. This is essentially making KT's Reach a 1.4 second fist. Go do your combat rotations. The DPS loss is immense.

The thought that a fast mainhand weapon is better is just backwards. Its like throwing a human off a cliff and expecting them to beat gravity. Its against the rules the universe (or in this case the world of warcraft) was built on.

Your numbers seem... strange. Sanity check: did you remember to change the weapon's damage ranges?

Edit: Ugh, beaten.

Nope, no typo. I copy pasted. I assume Open Office just does it differently or something.
What the change should do is not floor the Expertise given by rating, so that every point of rating has an impact not only those amounts that actually increase your Expertise on the character sheet.

Your point is correct, your example is not. Fists are not normalized the same as daggers. In your example, your losing 0.7 speed worth of ap on each special that you would not lose if it was a fist weapon. Fists are mornalized at 2.4 on instant attacks, daggers at 1.7.