Now take another WD (If your fortunate enough to have one like I do) and replace KT's Reach in your mainhand. This is essentially making KT's Reach a 1.4 second fist.
Unfortunately it isn't. We are in a world of normalised strikes. And normalisation values for fists and daggers are quite different.
My quick test on an unmodified for 3.0.9 spreadsheet shows a 10dps gain going from Angry Dread (current in-game) to 1.4 Angry Dread (with damage ranges from WD). So with 10% more haste from SnD the gap would be even larger.
Originally Posted by Verre
The thought that a fast mainhand weapon is better is just backwards. Its like throwing a human off a cliff and expecting them to beat gravity. Its against the rules the universe (or in this case the world of warcraft) was built on.
Something is incredibly wrong with this. I believe you changed the weapon speed without changing the damage range. There is no way the extra poison procs of a faster mainhand will make up for the huge amount of extra damage you do through yellow damage.
If you want to test this out properly in game use this example. CQC obviously effects daggers and fists the same, essentially making them the same weapon to a combat rogue. Equip in your mainhand a KT's Reach and a WD in your offhand, go out and see your dps. Now take another WD (If your fortunate enough to have one like I do) and replace KT's Reach in your mainhand. This is essentially making KT's Reach a 1.4 second fist. Go do your combat rotations. The DPS loss is immense.
The thought that a fast mainhand weapon is better is just backwards. Its like throwing a human off a cliff and expecting them to beat gravity. Its against the rules the universe (or in this case the world of warcraft) was built on.
Yes, i changed damage ranges. Maybe i did it wrong... don't think so. It should be as simple as writing a new formula in the cell no? For example "=(120+360)/2" I might be wrong, i know very little about working with excel.
And well... Mutilate should be using Slow weapons aswell but doesn't due to poison damage. Thought i would check for combat aswell.
Basically with my gear and the "most likely" 3.10 changes, if I did things right, Combat DPS would be significantly more powerful than Mutilate (by 204.2 dps). I looked at Mace and Sword builds, but both were inferior to CQC still. Mace was @ 4855.41 dps and Swords were at 4730.13 dps. Neither were mixed wpn specs.
Was the boss murderable? I think if you had it set as 'undead', a 200+ dps increase might be just fine, given that on a murderable boss Mut would be: 4700 x .04 = 188 + 4700 = 4888
so now mut is 4888 vs. 4899 very very close. Now, did your figuring also include the saved energy from the new HfB implementation?
So, to me, mut is still slightly ahead. Of course, this is a non-math'er trying to do math.. lol
You're pretty much right, actually. I compared Kel'thuzad's Reach numbers to Webbed Death changed to Fist (O12 cell in the gear sheet) and it's a DPS increase. You lose 136 Sinister Strike DPS and gain 191.58 poison DPS.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
So basically with the new changes the extra haste is giving enough poison procs to outwiegh a slow weapon in the mainhand? I still think there is something mechanically flawed with this, either that or playing rogue for 4 years and 4 months with a slow mainhand has twisted my mind to the point that I'm an old man who is set in his ways.
A combat rogue with a fast OH regenerates something on the order of 16 energy per second; thus, one averages something like one Sinister Strike every 2.5 seconds. With a 150 DPS MH Weapon, the difference between a 2.6 speed weapon and a 1.5 speed weapon is about 165 base damage, which is increased by 25% by talents but reduced by roughly a third due to armor, for a base difference of ~140 damage; when you factor in crits, the damge loss per SS due to a fast MH is on the order of 250. Since we postulated that there was one SS per 2.5 seconds, we thus lose about 100 DPS on SS by switching to an equal-damage fast MH.
Now, how much poison damage do we gain? Well, with the amount of haste one typically has in raids (1.4 * 1.2 * 1.03 and some haste rating), you probably gain close to a swing every 2 seconds, thus a WP proc every 4 seconds; hence, Wound Poison would need to proc for an average of 400 damage to make this break even. Which, of course, it does. Hence, the results proposed seem plausible, and it's probably worth investigating this further.
So basically with the new changes the extra haste is giving enough poison procs to outwiegh a slow weapon in the mainhand? I still think there is something mechanically flawed with this, either that or playing rogue for 4 years and 4 months with a slow mainhand has twisted my mind to the point that I'm an old man who is set in his ways.
I'm forced to agree with Verre here. The fact that mutilate prefers fast weapons wildly to slow is already kind of broken, plus it means all those 1.8 speed daggers are just shard loot because no one could ever love them. Subtlety does as well because it doesn't really use any weapon-damage attacks, except for I guess the occasional Hemo to waste time during a dry spell from HAT. If combat did so as well, I would probably have to retire my rogue, or at least actively question such decisions on the offical fora, which I don't like to go to very much for fear of my eyeballs falling out. I can't check the numbers out at work, but I'll play with it some when I get home. I see no reason not to trust Neto- and Aldriana if they say this is competetive.
What's the root cause here? Were the 3.0.1 poison buffs just far, far too large? Do they scale too well with AP? (hint: wound poison scales too well with AP) Is the prominence of haste on Northrend gear and haste effects from the new buffs blowing poison damage completely out of proportion? I don't know, but something is clearly wrong.
An interesting thing to note is that the SS dps lost from a fast MH weapon scales only with crit, while the poison dps gained scales with both crit and AP. So there should be an AP threshold here. I wonder where it is.
You're pretty much right, actually. I compared Kel'thuzad's Reach numbers to Webbed Death changed to Fist (O12 cell in the gear sheet) and it's a DPS increase. You lose 136 Sinister Strike DPS and gain 191.58 poison DPS.
Well , I compared Kel'thuzad's Reach numbers to Webbed Death ,and they both were changed to type "Fist" .
It's worth noting that for Shiv builds, the MH can be a dagger without penalty, but the OH benefits from being something that normalizes to 2.4. So this approach would presumably be best with Webbed Death MH and a fast fist OH... though the lack of good OH fists might be sufficient to allow WD to keep up even in the OH.
Just wondering if the fact that there are No fast fists that can be used in mh is being accounted for.
If it is, then would mh be a dagger (meaning a 1.7?) normalized sinister strike, or one of the fast swords/maces giving a 2.4 normalized sinister strike.?
which weapon spec used, cqc, sword(mace)/cqc,. or perhaps pure sword or mace, using fast sword or mace in both mh and oh.
I'm really sorry if i dont make sense but this is first time posting and tbh math was never my strong point
You can also have 3/3 the LR 10% haste in the shiv build with hybrid weapon specs by dropping "ImpSS" "Blade Twisting". The shiv build need to be modeled more accurately to compare with SS build in 3.1
Can someone do me a favour and run number on angry dread / angry dread? MH/OH as mace spec with patch changes. If info on this was posted already i am sorry. search function many many pages is annoying. So i'll keep reading through searches but would appreciate info.
Can someone do me a favour and run number on angry dread / angry dread? MH/OH as mace spec with patch changes. If info on this was posted already i am sorry. search function many many pages is annoying. So i'll keep reading through searches but would appreciate info.
Why do you want to put a 2.5 speed mace OH ? Less poison damage and less energy from Combat Potency
Guys, am I right understanding that as of today, at 3.0.8 highest dps possible setup is this:
Specc: 15/51/5
Glyps: SnD, Rupture, SS
Weapons: Calamity's Grasp with WP on it in main hand and Webbed Death with WP in off hand
Cycle: 3s/5r/5e
?
From what I've figured, we might be doing better with maces from Ulduar, but am I right understanding that after the implemention of 3.1 changes BEFORE I manage to get some maces, the above setup is still going to be the best? (Meaning that's what I should be using the day 3.1 comes out, therefore "prepared" myself best)?
I've found out that 16agi gems seem to be slightly better than 32ap, and they both are better than 16expertise gems (even if below cap). Can anyone confirm this or am I doing it wrong?
A couple of questions about gear: I've read in T7.25 Rogue Gear Discussion thread that:
1. Tunic of Indulgence is better than t7 (provided that you have 4/5 if using this chest) and it says the same on shadowpanther.net. However my spreadsheet says otherwise.
2. Stalk-Skin Belt is better than Belt of the Tortured. My Spreadsheet confirms this, however shadowpanther.net says otherwise. Is it wrong on shadowpanther?
3. Footwraps of Vile Deceit are better than Dawnwalkers. Neither my spreadsheet nor shadowpanther.net confirms.
4. Darkmoon Card: Greatness + Fury of the Five Flights is the best composition of trinkets. According to my spreadsheet, it says that Darkmoon Card: Greatness + Grim Toll is the best, shadowpanther says that Fury of the Five Flights is second best trinket.
Could anyone please comment your results on the above? Were you getting the same? Also, am I right understanding that it's best to run 4/5t7 + Chestguard of the Reculse (instead of 4/5+malygos gloves/sarth legs)?
I've noticed that if I go 4/5 + Chestguard of the Reculse, sapph's neck, dawnwalkers, Stalk-Skin belt and THURSTING BANDS and put 0 expirtise gems, I get over the cap of expertise just from that gear. When I switch the bracers to Sinner's Bidding, I get even more upgrade. Were you getting the same?
Thanks in advance for replies.
Guys, am I right understanding that as of today, at 3.0.8 highest dps possible setup is this:
Specc: 15/51/5
Glyps: SnD, Rupture, SS
Weapons: Calamity's Grasp with WP on it in main hand and Webbed Death with WP in off hand
Cycle: 3s/5r/5e
?
From what I've figured, we might be doing better with maces from Ulduar, but am I right understanding that after the implemention of 3.1 changes BEFORE I manage to get some maces, the above setup is still going to be the best? (Meaning that's what I should be using the day 3.1 comes out, therefore "prepared" myself best)?
I've found out that 16agi gems seem to be slightly better than 32ap, and they both are better than 16expertise gems (even if below cap). Can anyone confirm this or am I doing it wrong?
A couple of questions about gear: I've read in T7.25 Rogue Gear Discussion thread that:
1. Tunic of Indulgence is better than t7 (provided that you have 4/5 if using this chest) and it says the same on shadowpanther.net. However my spreadsheet says otherwise.
2. Stalk-Skin Belt is better than Belt of the Tortured. My Spreadsheet confirms this, however shadowpanther.net says otherwise. Is it wrong on shadowpanther?
3. Footwraps of Vile Deceit are better than Dawnwalkers. Neither my spreadsheet nor shadowpanther.net confirms.
4. Darkmoon Card: Greatness + Fury of the Five Flights is the best composition of trinkets. According to my spreadsheet, it says that Darkmoon Card: Greatness + Grim Toll is the best, shadowpanther says that Fury of the Five Flights is second best trinket.
Could anyone please comment your results on the above? Were you getting the same? Also, am I right understanding that it's best to run 4/5t7 + Chestguard of the Reculse (instead of 4/5+malygos gloves/sarth legs)?
I've noticed that if I go 4/5 + Chestguard of the Reculse, sapph's neck, dawnwalkers, Stalk-Skin belt and THURSTING BANDS and put 0 expirtise gems, I get over the cap of expertise just from that gear. When I switch the bracers to Sinner's Bidding, I get even more upgrade. Were you getting the same?
Thanks in advance for replies.
Shadowpanther just calculates MAEP, meaning it translates all the stats on items to how much they are worth in regard to agility, then they make a scale. The order of their items doesn't match yours, because depending on your combination of gear (haste, expertise, hit) the values for how much each stat is worth fluctuates.
Don't use it as a end-all be all in gearing. It is nice however for a quick check of general loot worth.
Was the boss murderable? I think if you had it set as 'undead', a 200+ dps increase might be just fine, given that on a murderable boss Mut would be: 4700 x .04 = 188 + 4700 = 4888
so now mut is 4888 vs. 4899 very very close. Now, did your figuring also include the saved energy from the new HfB implementation?
So, to me, mut is still slightly ahead. Of course, this is a non-math'er trying to do math.. lol
I left it as undead and not murderable for Mutilate builds. Simply because mostly we're still doing Naxx and we do not know how things will play out with Ulduar yet.
Using your dirty math, on murderable targets, it will be very close...edge still to combat. Thus under the best circumstances, Combat wins. Against undead, Combat does even better.
As for 3.1 HfB change compared to now, they are still going to use the same energy per sec. Now, and after, HfB will still have a duration of 30 secs. The only thing that will differ is that you can't prestack your HfB before combat. However you can risk waiting to the last minute on refreshes now because you won't have to worry about it costing you 90 energy to redo 3 stacks after a ill-timed CC.
A question, in an effort to save myself from duplicating work that has already been done; have the following been modeled for mutilate?
1) Drop both points in murder in favor of quick recovery when you are below the exp. cap
2) Drop a single point in murder in favor of vigor (+glyph) to allow more energy pooling and as such allowing rupture/deadly poison a longer duration before you are forced to dump energy into them.
The spreadsheet doesn't seem to react to either change (ie, the DPS is constant).
The Mutilate builds use JC-expertise gems and FotFF, combat builds use JC-AP gems and Grim Toll. I used a human JC/Mining rogue with a fight length of 180s on an undead boss target and no TotT usage. The last build was modified to use double IP with eviscerate with someone else poisoning the mob (3/3 Imp. Evis and 2/3 Ruthlessness). Combat builds share the advantage of Savage Combat (assumption: No other combat rogues or arms warriors in the raid).
So while shiv builds are indeed nice and only slightly behind SS builds, it is not worth speccing into them at the moment (which may change come 3.1, but there is no real knowing what will come of the promised overhaul). Mutilate still wipes the floor with combat though.
In case I missed it. Is there a reason why IP on the OH gives such a dps boost over WP for the examples of the fast/fast shiv combat builds? This is for 18/51/2 not taking improved poisons.
In case I missed it. Is there a reason why IP on the OH gives such a dps boost over WP for the examples of the fast/fast shiv combat builds? This is for 18/51/2 not taking improved poisons.
Shiv Tooltip
Performs an instant off-hand weapon attack that automatically applies the poison from your off-hand weapon to the target. Slower weapons require more Energy. Awards 1 combo point.
If you use shiv ,your offhand poison will 100% proc
so shiv is like an another ss with nature damage bonus
02/11/09, 6:45 PM
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