Platt

This is because IP has always hit harder than WP. The reason why WP was superior without Imp. Poisons is because it has a 50% chance to proc while IP has a 20% chance (possibly 30%, can't recall off the top of my head). With Shiv, you are always proc'ing the OH poison and since IP hits harder, it would do more damage than WP. I hope that is clear, as I may have explained kind of oddly.

 

zidaen

Combat potency would reduce the damage. It was just more a curiosity. What I was forgetting is that in the end unmodified dps in = haste modified dps out no matter what the speeds of the weapons assuming they are equal dps to start with.

angry dread is 391.5/2.5=156.6 so 391.5/1.25=313.2 and split greathammer is 250.5/1.6=156.56 so 250.5/0.8=313.125.

For some crazy reason I had the idea in my head that slow weapon would scale better with haste. Though it only took me 10 seconds to prove my self wrong

 

Genre

I tried a few things with the spreadsheet. Assuming Shiv is properly implemented, Hailstorm with INSTANT POISON in OH and Webbed death with Wound poison in MH results in DPS that is 1% under CG - Deadly/WD - Wound. This is with 5 Points in CQC and in Sword spec (since we get rid of SS). One can only assume that if a ilevel 226 sword existed, it would beat it.

EDIT: Moving things around, same weapon setup, but with a spec 7/51/13 and a rotation of 4s/5r gives me DPS equal to CG/WD. Glyphs are rupture/AR/BF.

 

Kospire

So you think 7/51/13 shiv build outperforms 18/51/2 shiv build .

AR glyph is useless for most fights

 

Genre

I didnt think... I just toyed around. But you are correct. 18/51/2 gives more... About 40DPS more then CG/WD. The rotation is 4s/5r. Glyphs remain the same since I dont know what else to pick. In Ass you put 3 points in vile poison.

AR glyph gives 2 uses in a 5 minute fight. Every time I try to squeeze in eviscerate, I lose DPS.

 

MentalPROblem

Doesn't it mean that in the end, the best what we can get is:
51/13/07 Mutilate 4e/4r(CttC) WD/WD IP/IP Rup/SnD/Evi
with this specc: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I mean that Mutilate still outdoes any of the combat builds right now, right?

 

Keyser

The spreadsheet doesn't trigger Combat Potency procs from Shiv attacks, does it?

While Shiv builds are being discussed, you're saying Blizz failed in their attempt to nerf Shiv builds by removing Shiv from triggering CP procs?

When you add coefficients from gimmick fights, won't DPE on SS builds scale much higher? Sorry for being a nub, but there's something whacked with Shiv being a viable end game raid spec.

 

Genre

The reason is the INSTANT poison proc... Basically, it makes your shiv do damage+poison damage on every hit. With vile poison, that leads to a pretty hefty amount.

According to Vulajin's spreadsheet, the above spec would give a breakdown of:

White 2224.12
Shiv 589.86
Rupture 427.81
Poisons 1617.53

That means about 31% of the damage comes from poison. The only thing I dont like about this spec is that it is partly an unintended side effect and not how Blizzard sees the class. Unintendly created unintendly fixed.

God, I hope I spelled unintendly right.

 

Acroanidd

Just got to thinking something, if dual Fast combat, when one uses Killing spree would it be a DPS loss, and if not a loss, definitely not worth the one point spent on it.

Reasoning:

Over 2.5 seconds you hit 5 times meaning that each hand swings at .5 seconds. This is only slightly faster than dual fast. While Dual Fast with just SnD up my weapons were ~ .75s. The catch here is that these 5 attacks cannot proc sword spec procs or CP. Now if someone hits Heroism while you are using Killing Spree I could almost guarantee a loss of potential DPS.

I would possibly figure that putting that one point in Imp Poison to gain another 2% IP Proc might actually yield more damage.

 

cougarhawk

There's been some discussion in this thread regarding the impact of the 3.0.9 changes once the (speculative) haste buff to Lightning Reflexes comes into play. To speculate further: keep in mind that the 10% haste added to SnD in 3.0.9 might mean the end of the LR change, i.e. the new SnD might fulfill the purpose of giving us the extra haste without gimping our ability to take mixed weapon specs.

On the subject of fast main hands, I personally made the 3.0.9 changes to the spreadsheet and fiddled with my (much lower level than most) gear to see if it's viable and I did indeed find that my DPS maxes out with a fast MH weapon in a shiv build. Specifically, the maximum DPS setup I could find as combat with the gear I currently have was:

18/51/2 Shiv Build
Glyphs: Rupture, SnD, Eviscerate
MH: Maexxna's Femur (Deadly Poison)
OH: Librarian's Paper Cutter (Instant Poison)
Rotation: 3s/5r/4e (Eviscerate)
Buffs: Just usual consumables, BoM, and GotW as that's all I'm sure to get most nights.

The fight length was set at 300 seconds, and my other weapon options were Greed and another paper cutter. Incidentally, note that my poison DPS actually overtook my white damage which I've never seen before. This put me within 2% (~50 DPS) of my best Mutilate set-up (with 2 paper cutters as weapons). It seems to me, that even at 10-man gear levels, fast main hands for combat are currently viable whether we like it or not.

I presume Killing Spree is considered a special and your analysis doesn't take into account the increased miss rate you would get from white attacks. In any case I tried it out with the setup I posted above and speccing out of KS to put the point into Improved Poisons (or even another point into Relentless Strikes) shows as a net DPS loss on the spreadsheet. I admit, however, that the situation might be different with higher hit rating and faster weapons.

 

Acroanidd

Very true, i should have prefaced that a tad, my gear / gemming has been very very heavy on AP / Hit, to an extreme almost, I've got 529hit rating while raiding. So my miss rate is much smaller than most. I don't have access to my spreadsheet right now to really test it. Please excuse the fact that i completely forgot about putting it into relentless which might actually work out better. Im just thinking that point for point with dual fast that it probly isn't worth it.

Edit: you can completely ignore my posts.. it sounded reasonable until i reread the latest patch notes about them increasing the damage of killing spree .

 

Xerop

Erm, you seem to be comparing to a "wrong" combat spec and setup. In my opinion, you should compare vs CG( Wound) + WD( Wound); assuming 3.1 changes go live( 10% haste in LR+10% haste on slice).

 

Genre

At the moment, with my gear set up (who aint that bad I guess), deadly pulls ahead still. By thinkering around and wishlisting I eventually get to a point where wound/wound is better. But this is beside the point, the point is that with instant poison being so strong, it is possible to make a shiv build that surpasses regular combat spec/setup. But as I mentionned earlier, I am pretty sure this is unintended on Blizzard's part.

 

Akiho

With only the current 3.0.9 SnD haste change added to the Spreadsheet, I am seeing a slight DPS gain from a Shiv build, even when placing an Omen of Ruin (instead of a KTR) in my main-hand (DP), and using my Avool's Sword of Jin as my OH, (IP).

One interesting thing to note is that if I change the Omen of Ruin to a 1.8 Dagger such as Anarchy or Sinister Revenge, I get a significant DPS bump due to increased white damage, but the increased speed of Webbed Death puts it right in between Anarchy and Sinister Revenge with Anarchy being slightly worse and SR being a bit better.

Calamity's Grasp also manages to sit in the same DPS range as Anarchy and Webbed Death. Sinister Revenge is better than Calamity's Grasp, however.

Best Glyph make-up: Rup/SnD/BF

Best Cycle: 4s/5r (I can't seem to make any sort of rotation work better on the SS for any build with Lethality, even though I often find myself Eviscerating with no loss in Rupture or SnD uptime).

With even more haste from Lightning Reflexes, this DPS gain should be even more dramatic due to poison procs, from what I am reading on the forums. With the mace spec change to add haste, Vulajin may want to look at adding the Femur from Maexxna to the MH section, as I think an fast MH mace would be very nice.

I think I will personally stick with a slow MH for now, so I don't have to enchant my Anarchy before the additional changes are actually implemented.

 

Zeyk_Shade

When I put this into my spreadsheet(I did update it with the proper SND/HFB changes), I lose 345.28dps.

Changed "Use Envenom instead of Eviscerate" to FALSE
same cycle as you mentioned
same glyphs as you mentioned
Undead Boss
No TotT

This nets 5228.34dps on the sheet vs. 5573.62dps with WD/SR and IP/DP using Envenom instead.

Is there something I am overlooking / doing incorrectly?

 

Kospire

Modify the sheet to make the target always poisoned

 

MentalPROblem

Great thanks for noticing my post/question!
Here's where you can check how to "trick" the spreadsheet to think that there is always poison applied
http://elitistjerks.com/1097801-post1103.html
Would be HIGHLY appriciated if someone else would post your comparison of this setup and combat builds.
Because I do believe that that mutilate spec is the best spec as of now, but I still haven't seen any confirmation yet :S

 

Narumi

Why do I lose like 4 dps when I take away 3 talents from Ruthlessness. It makes no sense to me.

Also I modified spreadsheet, and is it me or dual instant blows away usual Mut setup.

 

• Vulajin

Finally got around to whipping up version 0.4.5 of the spreadsheet. As always, it's available via the download link in the first post. Changes:

- Mutilate now only receives a 20% bonus on poisoned targets, and always assumes targets are poisoned.
- Slice and Dice now provides a 40% haste bonus.
- Hunger for Blood now provides 15% increased damage.
- Changed cycle calcs to assume 100% Slice and Dice uptime initially to allow the model to reach equilibrium more quickly.
- Removed one each of the "DPS Calc" and "Cycles" sheets.

Basically this version brings the sheet up to speed with patch 3.0.9. In addition, the last couple changes in that list are basically step 1 in a major effort to streamline the calculation paths in the sheet. This is going to be necessary if I ever want to expand the cycle model, because as it was, adding any new calculation paths (for example, for a more dynamic CttC model, or for HAT) was going to be a gigantic pain in the ass. My goal is to have two DPS Calc sheets and one Cycles sheet, though that may or may not be a pipe dream. At worst I'd have two of each. We'll see what I can manage.

If I've inadvertently broken something while removing those two sheets, please let me know. A cursory examination showed no problems, so I'm reasonably confident, but we'll see.

 

onkl

Are you going to change expertise truncation too or don't you consider this as proven yet?

 

• Vulajin

Expertise truncation was changed, I just forgot to include a note in the version history.

(edit) Or maybe it wasn't, because I'm stupid and can't keep the various versions I'm working on straight in my head. It'll be in the next version, and there are instructions on an earlier page to make the change yourself for now.

 

Tunus

The highest rank of Skinning bonus, Master of Anatomy, was changed a while ago to 32 crit rating, instead of 25.

 

Valustria

Thanks, naturally... one quick question: any chance you added [Enchanted Tear] as a gem option?

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings

 

Grunge

Is Dual IP "fix" included in this one?

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Genre

I did some testing on the PPM of mongoose. You currently list it at 1 however, some tests using Calamity Grasp in the MH and a caster OH indicates otherwise.

Before I proceed, I just want to make sure I follow properly how PPM works. Technically the chance of a weapon to proc is equal to PPMx(weapon speed)/60. Example, my Grasp was at 2.37 delay thus giving me a chance to proc of 3.95% per swing if the PPM is at 1.

Thus a preliminary test (that I will update when I have more time) and with the above set up, I had 40 procs out of 611. My initial assumption is that PPM0 = 3.95%. What I found is 6.55% which we will call PPM1.

p_PPM1= 6.55%
q_PPM1= 93.45%
Std(PPM1)= 0.0100 who is SQRT(pq/n)

Assume that:
1. we ignore the fact mongoose increases you attack speed for PPM calculations.
2. we are computing the std using the estimators of p and q.
3. each swing is totally independant.

I find that 19 times out of 20, the PPM will be between 1.15 and 2.15. It means we can, with quasi certainty, reject our basic assumption that it is equal to 1.

Anyways, maybe it should be higher.