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Old 12/23/08, 11:46 AM   #781
Palidus41
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Cenarion Circle
Given that you're talking about tanks, they're also dealing with bosses blocking and parrying their attacks, which expertise also helps with, and those rates are higher than their dodge rate. Those should be non-issues if you attack from behind, which you should be doing. Thus, tanks benefit from expertise beyond that which rogues consider to be their cap.

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Old 12/23/08, 11:52 AM   #782
Infuria
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Palidus41 View Post
Given that you're talking about tanks, they're also dealing with bosses blocking and parrying their attacks, which expertise also helps with, and those rates are higher than their dodge rate. Those should be non-issues if you attack from behind, which you should be doing. Thus, tanks benefit from expertise beyond that which rogues consider to be their cap.
Thanks, Palidus!

So, that's the long & short of it? The 221 rating is *it* for us, and the tanks benefit otherwise?

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Old 12/23/08, 12:01 PM   #783
veiled25
Glass Joe
 
veiled25's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Tinwhisker View Post
Something to check, did the red that you tried to swap in for a yellow break a socket bonus?

Something to remember, as has been said before, EP values are not static. Any type of EP is derived from models/spreadsheets based on a certain gearset (or similar), not the other way around as you imply.

Edit for grammar; poor noun syntax.
Yes I did check on the socket bonuses. The one yellow that I was switching out had actually been a red socket where I had just put in a yellow anyway as the bonus was only 4 expertise.

I also do know there not static. However Dragonfiend Bracers are definitely better than the Drake Champion's Bracers that I had before. Ofc I am no expert w/ this spreadsheet and posted the question here to try to see if anyone might know why it was doing this. It makes no sense. I have since deleted the spreadsheet and am going to try redownloading it again and starting over.

I know this probably wont help anything but its all Ive got.

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Old 12/23/08, 12:02 PM   #784
 gwystyl
Circus Peanut Quality Control
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
214 should be "it" for us in terms of expertise, although we are looking into the validity of that, too. Currently, Expertise Rating is 32.79 (rounded) per 1%, or 8.1975 per rating point (each rating point giving you 0.25%). Ignoring WEx, that's 26 * 8.1975 = 213.135. Assuming (rightly or wrongly) that the system truncates and rounds down, you'd need 214 to hit 6.5%.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

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Old 12/24/08, 2:00 AM   #785
Vindisama
Glass Joe
 
Vindisama's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Just to get this straight, would reaching that 214(or getting close to it) cap be a good target we should be focused on reaching?

As I've been running through 25man Naxx and picked up quite a few upgrades(regarding overall stats) up but all of them replaced the gear I had with base expertise on and at which point I'm on 42+(2/2 Expertise) which puts me on 15 odd Expertise in total where 214(without 2/2 Expertise) is 25 correct?

Should I switch back to previous blue gears with exp or gem only exp, hit/exp and stam/exp gems without loosing the gem bonus?
The re-gemming would put me around 91+(2/2 Expertise) effectively 21 then.

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Old 12/24/08, 2:23 AM   #786
Echophantom
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by Vindisama View Post
Just to get this straight, would reaching that 214(or getting close to it) cap be a good target we should be focused on reaching?
This keeps getting gone over in multiple threads - there is no target number for hit. No magic number. No number you "should" be at. No number you should focus on reaching. The simplest answer is that once you pass the special cap, hit loses some value, and once you pass the poison cap, it loses more value still. So until a certain threshold, hit may be your best stat point for point, but by no means should it be the only thing you look for in gear, gems or enchants.

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Old 12/24/08, 4:24 AM   #787
Vindisama
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Echophantom View Post
This keeps getting gone over in multiple threads - there is no target number for hit. No magic number. No number you "should" be at. No number you should focus on reaching. The simplest answer is that once you pass the special cap, hit loses some value, and once you pass the poison cap, it loses more value still. So until a certain threshold, hit may be your best stat point for point, but by no means should it be the only thing you look for in gear, gems or enchants.
Yea sorry about that, but with the gear upgrades I received I don't see that much of a dps increase although the sheets says otherwise. but I'm comparing myself to a enhancement shaman and warrior who all started out with me but I've received more upgrades but they still tend to out dps me since the start.
I feel like no amount of gear upgrades I get I'll still tend to fall behind them.
So I was basically just trying to determine where changes have occurred the most as I think this might be affecting my dps.

Also as I see stated above(or in another thread) is testing dps on Test Dummies not a accurate way of benchmarking and is there an alternative way to this(excluding testing it in an actual raid)?

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Old 12/24/08, 9:23 AM   #788
ShadowEric
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Terenas
Originally Posted by Echophantom View Post
This keeps getting gone over in multiple threads - there is no target number for hit. No magic number. No number you "should" be at. No number you should focus on reaching. The simplest answer is that once you pass the special cap, hit loses some value, and once you pass the poison cap, it loses more value still. So until a certain threshold, hit may be your best stat point for point, but by no means should it be the only thing you look for in gear, gems or enchants.
He's talking about Expertise, not Hit.


Vindisama, I would like to point out that you're wearing frost resist gear according to the armory, which shows 15 Expertise. I don't know what the rest of your gear is, but don't forget to take the frost resist gear off.

In any case, going back to blue gear is a bad idea. You'd lose a lot more on other stats. You can gem for Expertise instead, but as Combat rogue, it's not quite as vital to you as it is for Assassination rogues.

The answer therefore is: use the spreadsheet.

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Old 12/24/08, 10:50 PM   #789
raivyne
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Exodar
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Just because you have 36 or 34.5 or however many seconds of Slice and Dice time, doesn't mean you need to use every last one of them. Cutting your Slice and running 5s/5r means higher Rupture uptime, or in other words more effective Rupture DPS, which could conceivably be a greater gain than Eviscerating once per cycle.
I am very glad to read this.

I'm currently running 7/57/7 Fist spec. I found that 3s/5r was my optimal combat cycle and that I don't even need the glyph of SnD; I'm better off with the AR glyph. My cycle lasts just under 20 seconds so up time on both SnD and Rupture is near 100%, plus I get to use an extra AR during a boss fight.

Great work on the spreadsheet.

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Old 12/25/08, 3:03 AM   #790
ILikeUrBack
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Drak’Tharon
I'm not sure if this has been asked yet, and I'm sorry if it has, but do you have any plans for putting in calculations for a Xs/Ya/Zr cycle? I'm sure at the moment it's not a desirable cycle, but I'm trying to find a middle ground between the personal dps of a rupture only cycle, and the boost to raid dps with the expose armor cycle. I never get to run with warriors

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Old 12/25/08, 4:12 AM   #791
Kukulcan
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Nagrand (EU)
Originally Posted by Vindisama View Post
Yea sorry about that, but with the gear upgrades I received I don't see that much of a dps increase although the sheets says otherwise. but I'm comparing myself to a enhancement shaman and warrior who all started out with me but I've received more upgrades but they still tend to out dps me since the start.
I feel like no amount of gear upgrades I get I'll still tend to fall behind them.
So I was basically just trying to determine where changes have occurred the most as I think this might be affecting my dps.

Also as I see stated above(or in another thread) is testing dps on Test Dummies not a accurate way of benchmarking and is there an alternative way to this(excluding testing it in an actual raid)?
I found myself fightining with many classes always ,talking of dps.when i was combat spec. Then i changed spec to mutilate and now i do more damage than more of them... except some hunters and mage.

If you would change your spec and the adapt the weapons ( fast daggers in both hands ) you will get a dps increase major of any armor upgrade for the same spec.

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Old 12/26/08, 5:34 AM   #792
Zabathan
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Glyph of Garrote

Hi, I'm new to the EJ forums and also relatively new to the Roguecraft spreadsheet. I typically open with garrote and as such I have the glyph, but I noticed it's not listed as a choice. Is this omission intentional? I apologize if this has been addressed earlier in the thread; I only read through the first and last couple of pages, not the whole thread. Thank you.

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Old 12/26/08, 6:44 AM   #793
Rilias
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arthas (EU)
Since you do about 2 Garotte in a single Bossfight (and Bossfights are realy the only thing the spreadsheet models) it is not of importance for your DPS if you have the glyph or not. Moreover the Spreadsheet does to my knowledge omit any use of Stealthmoves altogether and simply estimates your DPS in the middle of a cycle, hence the lack of choice of opener.

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Old 12/26/08, 2:28 PM   #794
Zabathan
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Alright, thanks for the help.

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Old 12/26/08, 6:58 PM   #795
Ozsmeg
Glass Joe
 
Dreltath
Troll Rogue
 
Barthilas
Actually with the addition of a raiding Sub build (HaT) Vanish/Garrote is now a part of my rotation. Mainly because of the damage increase when leaving stealth. In addition the reduced Vanish timer from that build makes Garrote and its associated glyph a rather decent.

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