On the newer spreadsheet, when entering a three ability rotation (Xs/Xr/Xe), the calculated values NA on me. This is with Leopard 10.5.6 and Mac Office 2k8 with all associated patches/updates. Same situation exists on my Vista machine with Office 2k7 and all associated patches/updates as well. SS below for both OS's:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9413/screenshotlm5.png - OS X

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/113...enshot1qg9.png - Vista Ultimate SP 1

Not an Excel person at all (Cisco Nerd) but can easily execute a fix action if available/necessary.

Agreed. 2 WD, 2 IP beats WD/SR IP/DP (5049 dps). My head was clearly disconnected from my shoulders when I tried it out this morning.

How about all this fuss with shiv then? It seems to get significantly lower dps than that no matter what you do.



Thanks mate. I would say that you can't use Envenom without DP on one of your weaps so I changed Env back to Evisc and changed BF glyph back to evisc glyph, which yielded a DPS of 5345 which is still below the mutilate one I posted.

So at the moment best mutilate spec/gear gives about 100 more dps than best combat shiv spec/gear, but ofc it's worth it to have 1 combat rogue for savage combat.


Thanks for your replies guys.

Using your posted sheet with a 18/51/2 build and a 4/5/5 rotation (setting Eviscerate to yes), SnD/Eviscerate/Rupture glyphs, WD/Hailstorm with WP/IP, Sinners Bindings, Dawnwalkers gives me 5383.95 DPS.

Well, this looks like 1 PPM. You have a proc rate of 1.962% with a predicted 1.975% with 318 haste rating. This is neglecting the slight proc rate decline when Mongoose actually procs. It's interesting to note that you are combat spec. It's making me wonder if there is something in the Assassination tree that might be increasing Mongoose's proc rate somehow, because it definitely appears that my proc rate is much higher and ~4600 attacks isn't insignificant. We were both using LPC in the main hand and although I had 411 haste rating, that isn't all that much more.

Of course while riding the subway on the way home I realized that as well, so I apologize profusely (the above post has been edited to reflect my idiocy). My absent-mindedness notwithstanding, the scaling factor alluded to above is still evident here with the 5345 DPS you managed with your changes, and even more so with the 5383 that Gogge managed to tease out.

If you really want to test Mongoose, simply use a caster offhand (the orbs, books, etc), this will stop you from attacking with it. If you weapon is broken, you use your fist; doesnt that count toward the number of hits you got?

My original findings were that, on a level 70 dummy (to avoid misses), I would get a PPM between 1.5 and 2. However, when hitting a boss dummy it would be (with a minimal sample mind you) closer to 1. Thus, my question is: does the level of the dummy impact the PPM value? Aside from the fact you are missing more, what is the % that a HIT will proc?

~4600 attacks may be a too short test duration, at least I can imagine that there is space for variations. To give you an example: When I was doing this 5 hour test, I was surprised to see a glancing rate of 22.2% after ~3500 attacks. That was 1.8% less than expected. ~3500 attacks were simply too few, to give a distinct result of the real glancing rate. Maybe you can do an other test of longer duration with the same setting and spec to double check if there is a relation to Assassination, or if it was just "lucky"?

Unless I've misread something, Savage Combat (in the buff section) is currently listed as giving only a 0.01 multiplier per talent point when it should be giving 0.02.

I just noticed this.

In the Player/Raid buffs section, where the Melee Haste option is.. it says Improved Icy Touch. Imp IT is a thunderclap-type debuff on the boss, Imp Icy Talons is the haste buff.

Not really a big deal, just thought i'd point it out.

Here is another parse. Need to cut off attacks after the weapon broke (easy enough to tell because of the speed of the dagger). Same stats and conditions as previously mentioned (411 Haste). It should be noted that all my tests are on the boss dummy although I am attacking from the front.

94 mongoose procs in 2960 eligible hits is 3.176% proc rate vs the theoretical 1.925%. Again proccing far more than expected.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ngznzt...te411Part2.txt

This brings my combined data to 192 procs in 6147 attacks for a 3.123% proc rate vs. the 1.925% theoretical which is currently 1.622 PPM.

Next tests I'm going to try attacking from behind to see if there seems to be a difference.

Usually, having a smaller sample space will only result in your confidence interval being wider. For example, the first test I concluded had about 2000 hits; it gave me an average PPM of 1.75 with a confidence interval 19 times out of 20 of 1.50 and 2 (thats all from memory). This would indicate that with a 95% certainty you can say your PPM is between 1.5 and 2. For it to actually be 1 would require you to be not only unlucky, but EXTREMELY unlucky (emphasis on the extreme which essentially means it doesnt happen). That was all on a level 70 dummy.

HOWEVER, and this is my question, could the level of the dummy actually influence your proc rate? Doing a test with only 300 swings gave me a PPM of roughly 1 on a boss dummy. Now 300 is very small, my confidence interval would probably have been between 0 and 2 PPM so... What is it worth? Not much.

In the current patch it is .01. Next patch it will be .02, but for the moment it's only .01.

True, though low-probability events exhibit less variance, so we get better data on Mongoose than we would on Glancing in 4600 attacks. More is, of course, always better - but it's a start. In terms of grinding the actual numbers:

Running Lokkun's data shows the proc rate to be 95% likely to be between .878 and 1.104 PPM.

DMM's Shiv test: as I recall PPM effects aren't normalized to 1.7 on instant attacks, they're simply not haste-adjusted. So I'd expect the proc rate there to be 1.3/60 if it's 1 PPM. In terms of the actual data, the range gotten is 1.82 to 3.13 PPM.

DMM's autoattack test: 95% likely to be between 1.286 and 1.908 PPM.

So... we have 3 different tests, and 3 almost mutually distinct probability ranges. Clearly, there is some mechanic in play, or an error with one of the tests.

I guess my first question would be for DMM: how were you counting procs? Is it possible that you were counting both gains and fades, and thus finding (almost) twice as many procs as were actually occurring? Could you give the breakdown of gains/refreshes/fades?

Edit: Just grabbed DMM's part 2, and am counting 52 procs in 3068 hits, which gives a 95% confidence interval of .643 to 1.118 PPM. So I suspect it is a gain/fade doublecounting thing that is causing his results to be different.

Oops...double checked my parsing and it does seem to be counting fades as well, silly syntax. Let me recalc these numbers...

Ok, that's better 103 procs out of 6147 attacks. Although for special attacks, I recall doing testing during BC that showed the proc rate was normalized on special attacks. I no longer have a slow weapon with mongoose on it, but at the time the proc rate for specials was basically the same for 1.4 and 2.6 speed weapons. I'll leave that for others to reconfirm.

So now I guess the other question is whether bosses (or boss dummies) reduce the proc rate or not. This might be interesting because this might have been the case all along and we didn't know it due to lack of testing on actual bosses.

I've been able to theorize a maximum Mutilate dps of

5539 DPS
300 second duration
Non-murderable mob

Has anyone beat that on their spreadsheet of Best in slot gear?

vulajins spreadsheet btw

Getting 5674.92 with best in slot gear, and full raid buffs(flask, 1 lust, speed pot, AP food) as a Troll.

5706.92 DPS BiS on everything except 2nd trinket (FotFF never drops for me).
300 sec fight duration, blood elf, all buffs (except heroic presence).
WD/WD IP/IP 5e/5r, ToTT not used. insc/JC proffs.

I'm not interesting in having this thread turn into a "who can win the spreadsheet" dick-waving exercise. Please don't take it that direction unless you're going to reveal that you came up with a new theoretical DPS maximum involving a non-obvious cycle or some gear selection that isn't already covered in the "T7.25 Rogue Gear Discussion" thread.

The post immediately above mine would be an example of the kind of discussion that is actually worthwhile, since it concerns the differences between an IP/IP Eviscerate cycle and an IP/DP Envenom cycle.

(edit) I will be infracting any posts in this thread from here on out that simply list your DPS and a blurb about the gear/buffs used if you don't specify how your finding is important or useful to others.

I'm not entirely clear what you're trying to say here, but it seems like you are getting higher DPS output when you specify "use Envenom" even though you don't have DP equipped. That is because the Envenom calculations do not automatically zero out just because you don't have DP equipped. Using the Envenom damage formula in the sheet, an Envenom performed at 0 DP stacks (even though it's technically impossible) will still deal substantial damage. Plus, you'll still get the Envenom buff bonus to your poison procs, even though you technically shouldn't. So yes, selecting "use Envenom" when you don't have DP equipped will still increase your DPS, but only because it is modeling an impossible situation.

I am not sure if this is a bug or I don't understand how something is working...

By switching a glyph from NONE to Adrenaline Rush I get an increase in DPS even if I have a fight set to an amount of time that is less than the 4 minute refresh of AD after being glyphed.

Why does this glyph increase my DPS on a 30 second or 180second fight? Shouldn't it have 0 effect on fights of these lengths if it no longer affects Killing Spree?

Is AR or this Glyph being modeled incorrectly or am I missing something here?

I'm sorry, Maybe I should have been a lil more forth with my question. I figured as much about the sheet as you stated, but my real question is that the only way I can get 2 WD 2 IP with evis finisher to outdps WD/SR IP/DP with envenom (BiS gear) is by switching it from True to False. Are people switching this around when they come up with 2WD 2IP being better? Because Im getting the opposite.

I still have no idea what you are talking about, but I suspect that you are using the "use Envenom" setting in a stupid fashion. "Use Envenom" should ONLY be set to true if you are using an Envenom cycle. It should be set to false if you are using an Eviscerate cycle. When you switch "use Envenom" from true to false, you are switching from an Envenom cycle to an Eviscerate cycle by definition. Thus, an IP/IP setup must have "use Envenom" set to false, or the results make no sense.

Adrenaline Rush is not included in the time-based cooldown modeling. It is simply provided as an averaged effect. As a result, equipping the Glyph of Adrenaline Rush will always increase your DPS if you have taken Adrenaline Rush. I might consider changing this in the future, but it's far down the list of priorities.

I have just a quick question about the sheet.

I was re-gemming some things today to continue meeting the requirements of the RED Meta. When I swapped an 8hit/8agi gem from my legs to a 16 expertise gem (which I am not expertise capped, nor below the Poison hit cap) and the sheet is showing a 100 dps loss. Would anyone be able to point out to me if it's something I'm doing wrong?

Thanks,
Fishnat

I suspect that change is causing you to no longer meet the metagem requirements - do you have a yellow gem elsewhere in your gear? That's the only circumstance I can think of where changing a single gem would get a DPS change on the order of 100 DPS.