On the spreadsheet, when I put "Accuracy" on my OH weapon, and it's showing a higher possible DPS than putting a mongoose on my OH.
Is this a mistake in the spreadsheet, is it a variant of my rogue set up, is it because of OH hitting cycle, or is it because I'm just a noob and doesn't understand these things?
Just noticed something quirky playing with the sheet to find an ideal IP/IP spec (using LPC/Murder).
As I was taking points out of Ruthlessness (to throw in to Imp Eviscerate) my overall dps increased by around 7dps. When using Murder/Twilight Mist overall dps drops as expected. going to do some rudimentary dummy testing to see if the cycle holds without ruthlessness.
I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?
I just want to make sure that people are not missing the elephant in the room here; mutilate's damage is only mutilate's damage as given in the spreadsheet if the target is poisoned...
Sukoden - "I refuse to play druid. In the end you get too many and you end up with a frickin zoo."
Just noticed something quirky playing with the sheet to find an ideal IP/IP spec (using LPC/Murder).
As I was taking points out of Ruthlessness (to throw in to Imp Eviscerate) my overall dps increased by around 7dps. When using Murder/Twilight Mist overall dps drops as expected. going to do some rudimentary dummy testing to see if the cycle holds without ruthlessness.
It's been stated before in this thread that dropping ruthlessness would be the best bet since you're gonna be wanting to run a 5CP finisher cycle and keeping ruthlessness would only mean potentially wasting CPs.
Also, try swapping LPC to your offhand and Murder to the MH as you might find you gain a bit more dps.
Originally Posted by Rosethorn
I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?
I just want to make sure that people are not missing the elephant in the room here; mutilate's damage is only mutilate's damage as given in the spreadsheet if the target is poisoned...
As long as the hunter(s) are able to focus the boss the entire encounter they should be providing a poison almost 100% of the fight.
Last edited by Kitherdra : 02/19/09 at 6:06 AM.
Reason: spelling
It's been stated before in this thread that dropping ruthlessness would be the best bet since you're gonna be wanting to run a 5CP finisher cycle.
Also, try swapping LPC to your offhand and Murder to the MH.
After tweaking and testing things out on the sheet it I am seeing the LPC is now the second best OH in game for ip/ip(second only to webbed death). The best IP/IP weapon combos I could find(given my gear and stats at least) are as follows....
WD/WD
WD/LPC
Murder/LPC
LPC/LPC
and finally LPC/Omen of ruin
Interesting. I have very similar gear to you, but for me Murder/Murder beats Murder/LPC by 8 dps.
Similar results with BiS.
I wonder what's causing the discrepancy.
Originally Posted by RedCrossRobbery
On the spreadsheet, when I put "Accuracy" on my OH weapon, and it's showing a higher possible DPS than putting a mongoose on my OH.
Is this a mistake in the spreadsheet, is it a variant of my rogue set up, is it because of OH hitting cycle, or is it because I'm just a noob and doesn't understand these things?
Most likely you were below poison hit cap, which gives hit somewhat higher value until you are atpoison hit cap.
Mongoose also has diminished proc rate at 80, so it's not that great.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Interesting. I have very similar gear to you, but for me Murder/Murder beats Murder/LPC by 8 dps.
Similar results with BiS.
I wonder what's causing the discrepancy.
.
No discrepancy, I realized i had mucked up the list as well as left out 2 weapon set ups and edited my post almost immediately after clicking submit. You were just quick to quote >.<
the list should have looked like(for my gear at least)
wd/wd
wd/murder
wd/lpc(only slightly worse than wd/murder)
Murder/Murder
Murder/Lpc(only slightly worse than muder x2)
and
Lpc/Omen of ruin
Again, i removed the list from my original post cuz 1) i mucked it up, and 2) i felt since this thread is for the spreadsheet, people could just plug it themselves and see what they get as there are many factors that could change it.
I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?
I asked this exact question to the hunters in my guild (as we predominantly raid 10-mans and this is even more important in such situations). By way of anecdotal evidence, I'll quote the Q&A I had with a survival hunter that I feel does quite a bit of research on his class:
Q: Do you use any of your Stings as part of your rotation? My understanding is that Scorpid Sting makes its way into most PvE rotations. A:
* For Sv: SrpSt is part of the armoury but there is a general preference order of Kill Shot, Explosive Shot, Aimed Shot, SrpSt. So it is only fired when the others aren't on CD.
* For BM: A must use to get the benefit of Steady Shot Glyph so they aim to have it up 100%.
* For MM: One of the shots renews the sting so most MM specs have pretty constant uptime on the sting if they are well-equipped and talented.
Q: If so are you able to keep the debuff from the sting up by yourself? If not, how often would you estimate it drops? A:
* For Sv: As it is 4th on the list it does drop quite frequently. I do not try to refresh in advance and wait for it to drop for mana reasons. In a fight with lots of movement it will drop during the movement phase and only get refreshed 3 to 4.5 seconds into the damage phase. Not sure about total uptime, will keep an eye on it for the next few days, but when I have checked it has been about 50% to 75% depending on fight.
* For BM: When I was playing this I was managing about 90% uptime as there were only two cooldowns to watch whilst mashing steady shot.
* For MM: As I say above my understanding is that MM should be able to keep it up almost 100% (save for silly movement like Heigan)
Q: If the sting does drop, would you think 2 hunters in a raid is enough to keep a sting up on the mob 100% of the time? 3 hunters? Does it even make a difference? A: Depends upon how 'in tune' their shot sequences are. If you had Sv and one other spec you should get almost 100% uptime. 2 SVs I would guess you would still have some downtime although I would doubt it would be more than 10%.
The conclusion I drew from this is that for a 25-man situation where you're more likely to have 2 hunters with you it's safe to assume that there will be a poison debuff on most bosses most of the time. Keep in mind that this is just one hunter's opinion, in fact another Survival hunter told me that he tries to keep 100% uptime on the sting. My advice: if you only raid with one hunter who happens to be Survival specced ask him if he keeps it up, otherwise it's probably safe to assume he's always poisoned.
Also note that you should always have at least one combat rogue, who in general will keep up wound poison.
I can see in some 10man situations where you'd be forced to go IP/Deadly due to no hunters/other rogues.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Also note that you should always have at least one combat rogue, who in general will keep up wound poison.
I can see in some 10man situations where you'd be forced to go IP/Deadly due to no hunters/other rogues.
Note the 2% Savage Combat buff might be less than you think, and more importantly, less than what you personally gain when going from Combat to HAT (or even Muti). If approximating 8 melee/physical on your 25man raid (think 2 stacks of 3 melees on KT plus 2 hunters, for example), and furthermore, around 4.5k dps for each, 2% more is 720 rdps. Shaman/Retri spelldamage and rogue/hunter poisons deflate this further, so it'll make educated guess of ~600 rdps max. In any case, "should" is a strong word.
Of course, in 3.1.0 this buff will be 4%, but that's not now.
The Q/A that cougarhawk posted with the SV hunter is probably more the exception thean the rule about SV keeping Serpent Sting up. SV hunters should also try to have Serpent Sting up at all times because of Noxious Stings. So all hunters should have near 100% uptime.
Using the new version 4.7LK (modified) I am seeing some surprising(to me) behavior. With mostly NAx 25 pieces exept for 2 heroes pieces that need to be upgraded to valorous, hit has become more valuable than AP/Agility.
I am running mutilate with WD/WD. Using IP/IP with eviscreate. Changiing pristine gems to rigid gives me a 3 dps upgrade and swapping bright dragons eyes to rigid dragons eyes nets me 12 dps increase per gem. Seems like we are back to BC gemming?
I am running mutilate with WD/WD. Using IP/IP with eviscreate. Changiing pristine gems to rigid gives me a 3 dps upgrade and swapping bright dragons eyes to rigid dragons eyes nets me 12 dps increase per gem. Seems like we are back to BC gemming?
You're quite a way below the poison hit cap. Even the rough EP weights posted in the pocket guide value Hit gems over AP or Agility gems in your setup (I think the EP section there was updated more recently than the gemming section). In addition, you're using the IP/IP Evis setup, which I believe would make you even more dependent on poison procs so it doesn't strike me as odd that you're seeing this kind of behaviour.
Using the new version 4.7LK (modified) I am seeing some surprising(to me) behavior. With mostly NAx 25 pieces exept for 2 heroes pieces that need to be upgraded to valorous, hit has become more valuable than AP/Agility.
I am running mutilate with WD/WD. Using IP/IP with eviscreate. Changiing pristine gems to rigid gives me a 3 dps upgrade and swapping bright dragons eyes to rigid dragons eyes nets me 12 dps increase per gem. Seems like we are back to BC gemming?
According to your armory you have 156 hit, you're going to continue to see that hit is one of your best stats to gear for until you reach the poison cap (237 with misery/imp FF debuff on your target or 315 without either debuff).
I think I am reading the pocket guide wrong then. It says AP/Agilty over special hit cap which I am, but newest patch with eviscerate suggest hit over them to poison hit cap.
I think I am reading the pocket guide wrong then. It says AP/Agilty over special hit cap which I am, but newest patch with eviscerate suggest hit over them to poison hit cap.
This may have to do with you using 2xWD. The 3.0.9 patch brought even greater emphasis to poison damage. The spreadsheet may be pushing you to maximize the number of poison hits rather than the damage of each hit at your gear level.
The Pocket Guide is more of a general guide to build upon. I believe almost everything it says is prefaced by, "For a more detailed analysis of what you should do, check one of the spreadsheets." Use the Pocket Guide to start you in the right direction but trust what the spreadsheet says if they differ.
Note the 2% Savage Combat buff might be less than you think, and more importantly, less than what you personally gain when going from Combat to HAT (or even Muti). If approximating 8 melee/physical on your 25man raid (think 2 stacks of 3 melees on KT plus 2 hunters, for example), and furthermore, around 4.5k dps for each, 2% more is 720 rdps. Shaman/Retri spelldamage and rogue/hunter poisons deflate this further, so it'll make educated guess of ~600 rdps max. In any case, "should" is a strong word.
Of course, in 3.1.0 this buff will be 4%, but that's not now.
The Calculations were done on this a few weeks ago. With a skilled player (this is where it usually goes wrong) Combat rogues are not far behind Mutilate rogues. With Best in Slot gear with normal Combat builds (because I personally think Shiv builds are incredibly stupid and wrong) Combat is only about 100-150 dps behind.
I can pull out the e-peen crap and say i beat mutilate rogues all the time but I cant say that they are good players. What is known is that the 2% buff is worth it for a raid if the Combat rogue has enough skill to keep up with Mutilate rogues (or pass them).
If i could find the link that was posted in one of these forums the other day I would post it. It has the top 5 dps list from WWS parces. On almost every fight HAT comes out on top, but the top Combat rogues are ahead of the Mut Rogues on almost every encounter as well. That being said I know Mutilate is higher dps on Murderable bosses and wont argue that.
I think I am reading the pocket guide wrong then. It says AP/Agilty over special hit cap which I am, but newest patch with eviscerate suggest hit over them to poison hit cap.
It appears that the gems table may be a little out of date, I looked at the wowhead link for "Mutilate, above yellow hit cap, below poison hit cap" and the filter has hit rating set for a 1.8 weight. If you scroll up to Aldriana's EP Weights for mutilate, the text estimates that hit is weighted about 2.2 for being between the yellow and poison hit caps. If you correct the filter you'll see that hybrid gems with hit are better then Agi/AP gems are for your red slots (glinting, pristine, and accurate) which reflects your findings.
Actually I brought this up because the spreadsheet was giving me new information. It's interesting, when I change it back to envenom, AP/Agility seem to pull ahead and with eviscerate hit is stronger.
Also, with eviscerate, Mark of Norgannon is best in slot as second trinket.
Actually I brought this up because the spreadsheet was giving me new information. It's interesting, when I change it back to envenom, AP/Agility seem to pull ahead and with eviscerate hit is stronger.
Also, with eviscerate, Mark of Norgannon is best in slot as second trinket.
Hit is stronger with in an eviscerate build not because of eviscerate, but because a missed instant poison is far more penalizing than a missed deadly application. Mark of Norgannon is only viable if you are lacking expertise gear. There are far better trinkets once you acquire those pieces.
I have updated my spreadsheet with the stats for Hatestrike as my MH weapon, using a Shiv build, as this is the best weapon I have for this particular build to stick into the MH slot.
I like this build for PvP, as the sword is normalized at 2.4 and crits at a little over 6000 unbuffed using a 5-point evisc in my T7.0 gear, (I could hit 6500 using SS with Crimson Steel, so the increased damage of IP+Shiv, as well as better efficiency and faster MH attacks, with an increase in WP procs, is well worth it). The poison damage also is unaffected by armor, as I understand it, so it makes me more effective against warriors and Pallys. From what I have seen on mobs, it looks like it is going to do very well in a raid environment.
My question is this. Is there a way to implement OH weapons from the SS into the MH slots without just manually changing the stat values. When I manually enter values, it "breaks" the sheet and won't allow me to substitute other weapons in without manually entering their stats, because I have overidden them.
It would be nice to have these as options in the MH drop-down, but since this Shiv build may not last for long, I could see reasoning behind not implementing it. The Shiv stuff is pretty fun though!
My question is this. Is there a way to implement OH weapons from the SS into the MH slots without just manually changing the stat values.
Go to Format > Sheet and unhide the sheets called "MH Weapon" and "OH Weapon" then simply add whatever weapon you want to the appropriate list, they will then show up on the lists on the gear sheet.
Just ran a test regarding the Arcane Mage talent: Focus Magic to test if the 3% crit affects us at all.
Test baseline.
Talents 0/10/0 to get 5/5 precision.
Poisons Used: Wound MH, Instant OH also Deadly/Deadly
A.200 hits with unpoisoned daggers. No FM
B.200 hits with poisoned daggers. No FM
C.200 hits with poisoned daggers. FM
D.200 hits with envenoms. No FM
E.200 hits with envenoms. FM
A. White hits resulted with 0% crit.
B. White hits and poisons resulted in 0% crit.
C. White hits result with 0% crit. Poisons resulted in 16% crit.
D. White hits and envenoms 0% crit.
E. White hits 0% crit, envenoms 9% crit.
While FM was on me with WP/IP the mages noticed a 100% uptime of their FM buff. Said it's unlike normal raid situations where it would be up sporadicaly.
Conclusion: FM may be a nice little DPS boost, nothing amazing, but a boost nonetheless.
02/18/09, 6:34 PM
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