I've read through the Aldriana suggestion as well as the "download newest version of OO" comments.

My ibook doesn't seem to like OO (regardless of x11) so i'm stuck with NeoOffice.

Newest version of Neo (patched) still gives me the error.

Can you elaborate on the way to make changes in cycles1 cell AL45. I apologize for being a complete neophyte with excel, but I could not figure out how to add zero to the forumulae in order to get everything working.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Vulajin, I'm trying to add a new cycle to the spreadsheet to better model the potential DPS of an assassination shiv spec. The cycle I want to add is Xr/Ye/Ze (CttC).

I copied down the contents of the existing Xs/Yr/Ze cycle and changed some of the obvious fields but I'm sure I haven't changed everything I need to. Also, I can't even select the cycle from the drop-down menu (excel noob). Please advise.

Did some sniffing around the issue - referring to named cell ranges with INDIRECT (cycletableref&"1" in this case) was what broke compability with earlier OO versions (502 is invalid argument error, for the record), so I guess NeoOffice's problem is that it doesn't yet support it. What you can do is to replace the argument with the literal cell range, but you need Vulajin or someone else with a higher understanding with the sheet to tell you that.

Edit: it appears to refer to $'Talents & Settings'.$M$28

You need to modify formula of cell M28 on "talent and settings" sheet to remove the "1" at the end so the value if false be cttce instead of cttce1

It's still there, just change both O18 values for O19 in the formula of M17 DPS sheet

Where are you Vulajin?

I am not fully understanding 0 duration vs lets say a 140 second duration, as that is a fairly average Patchwerk kill in my guild. With the 0 duration, my BiS trinkets go to the Greatness Deck and Grim Toll, and when I enter a 140 second duration it goes to 2 completely different trinkets in Loatheb's Shadow and Mark of Norgannon.

The 0 duration has CoH effects while the 140 has the use effects, and I have mixed opinions on why this is. Same gear each time just changing the time and the trinkets.

Thanks, and thats what I was assuming. So I went ahead and looked at the break even point, where the 2 min on use trinkets fall behind the CoH trinkets is between 280 and 300 seconds.

I might have made my original post unclear. The cycle is 1e/4r not 4e/1r. In the meantime i tested it and what i was doing wrong was waiting for a fifth combo point before envenoming. With my spec and gear, it's very easy for me to hit 3-4 CP in a single mutilate, but waiting for that fifth combo point to refresh my cycle was wasting time, when i was literally 'throwing away' the CP i gained after 5 just to get a tiny DPS boost over 4. It simply takes less time to hit 4 CP and envenom, hit 4 and envenom, hit 4 and rupture than it does to hit 5 for each, and the extra envenom is where the extra dps comes in.

has it officially been confirmed that a: WD/WD & IP/IP with Eviscerate Finisher will out DPS > WD/SR & IP/DP with Envenom Finisher? This is of course assuming that all the necessary gear requirements are met with best in slot essentially optimizing DPS according to the gear setup on your spreadsheet. Also if that is the case, would you move 3 pts in the assassination tree to IMP Eviscerate? If this question has already been addressed I apologize but if this is found to be the case 100% of the time, i think it should be put out for other mut rogues to see.

In RC 0.4.7 sheet, this 51/13/7 mutibuild has been optimal with my close BiS gear, with WD/WD IP/IP, evisc finishers and assuming that Master Poisoner buff is present from someone else. Numbers: IP/DP/env 5245, IP/IP/evi 5368 (diff: 2.3%). Losing +3% critbuff loses all the edge this build may have.

Notes: Ruthlessness 2/3 is very slight upgrade, but I saved those points for Murderable dragons (doing Maly and Sartha achis). IP isn't leaving poison, so MP is non-upgrade. Deadly Brew isn't sticking to bosses, which makes that+MP non-upgrade too. And if you start running non-IP on either dagger, you'd better go with the traditional Mutilate anyway.

Why don't you try the spreadsheet yourself, with more tangible gear (yours)?

Both in game and on 4.7 spreadsheet my expertise rating comes out the same 171 with my gear. However in game shows a reduced chance to be dodged/parried as 5.00% but on the spreadsheet it's 5.22%?

I just cant seem to find where this discrepency is coming from either the calculation on the sheet is wrong or am I gaining expertise rating from a raid buff or talent/skill that I dont know about. I have double checked and the expertise food buff is set to false.

unfortunately i don't have a copy of Microsoft XL so the spreadsheets are read only, hence why I'm asking otherwise i'd attempt to crunch the numbers myself =(

also with my current gear setup [4Tier Pieces / 3Pts into Ruthlessness / Roughly 35.5% Crit / Non-Raid buffed] I often catch myself in a situation where my energy is nearly capped with S&D / Rupture at nearly 50% duration and HfB at roughly 70% Duration. I'm currently using the 4e/4r MIN <--> 5e/5r MAX DPS cycle. In this situation what would be the best option in the long run? I'm running this under the assumption that the fight would last anywhere between 150secs to 210 secs. Squeeze a 2nd Envenom? Mutilate to possibly 5CP (I'm aware I may be losing 1-2 CP)? I'm sure that letting the energy cap out and remain capped out until the durations are low would probably be the worst decision. But ultimately I'm unsure what what would remain the best course.

I'd suggest trying OpenOffice.

And envenom mutilate can manage 1+x Envenoms sometimes between ruptures.
But yes most cases IP/IP+Eviscerate is superior to IP/DP+Envenom

I have both a question and a request:

Question

I am under the assumption that if you are not hit capped that 1 for 1 hit will always be greater dps then agility. When i plug in my gear and spec (standard Mut spec) i come up with about 12% +hit. I was wondering why when i compare gems, the agi gems are are coming up slightly better then the hit gems (ie yellow slot = 8hit/8agi over 16 hit and red slot = 16 agi over 8hit/8agi). Does the 12% that is displayed in the green totals box, not reflect the 5% from talents or any of the buff totals for hit?



Suggestion

I understand your desire to keep the spreadsheet simple and free of a lot of automation. As a mac user, I rely on Open Office to use this tool. There is however somethings I do miss from the old spreadsheet, such as seeing both buffed and un-buffed damage modeled side by side. What would be nice to see the difference between unbuffed/10 man buff/25 man buff in a side by said comparison. It would also be nice to see side by side comparisons of time in relation to the above suggestion.

My reason for asking for this is simple. Assumptions made about best in slot are not always true in every situation. Looking ahead to Uldur, we will most likely be faced with boss encounters that will require us to be say better equipped for burst damage and not allow for long term combo point use/spend (ie Heigan Phase 1). In this situation moving to a slower daggers in a Mut spec can prove beneficial.

Simply put, it takes much time to comb through ever piece of gear 1 by 1, and with so many variables effecting the results, it would be nice to get a better picture of an items value based on common scenarios.

Thank you

You're only partially correct in your assumption -- you are missing one word that effects it in a big way. Your assumption should read: until you are special (yellow) hit capped, 1 for 1 Hit Rating will always be better than Agility (and technically, this isn't even true for combat, but you will never find yourself below the yellow cap if you aren't wearing retarded gear). After reaching the special hit cap, which can be done at 99 hit rating (think 100 to be sure and keep it simple) plus 5/5 Precision, more Hit Rating becomes a lot less valuable than before that point. Which is not to say it's not a good stat -- and different builds might value it slightly higher or lower than others -- but you can get away with stacking Agility at that point without fearing you have made any huge blunders. But, to be sure, do a little more research here on the forums, read the Pocket Guide, and see what works optimally for you in the spec you are playing.

I see alot of rogues geming for AGI when according to the spreadsheet I see gemming for AP to be the wiser choice? Is this a flaw or am i seeing things?

Tried against Kel'Thuzad and confirmed with WD / OoR, but the advantage is slight due to my 1.5 OH. With two 1.4 or better it looks definitely worthwhile.

Bonus is only 20% now for patch 3.0.9, so using traditional IP+DP / Envenom, my damage percentages during a raid looked something like this:

White: 40%
Instant Poison (MH): 19%
Mutilate: 17%
Envenom: 8%
Deadly Poison (OH): 8%
Rupture, procs, etc = the rest.

Roughly looking at Mutilate:
.17 * .2 = ~3.5% damage you'd lose if the target wasn't poisoned. Subtract out deadly and you're down by 11-12%.

If your OH instant poison can do more than that, IP+IP is better.

Eviscerate damage versus envenom is sortof a wash. It depends on the boss armor, whether you have 3/3 Improved, and whether you have the glyph (+10% crit chance). Either way, at <10% of your overall damage it isn't a large factor.

Bosses where you have to move out of melee range alot might benefit more from IP+DP.

You have to consider the improved poison application rate through Envenom though, which would bring poison damage down a bit. Not sure how much though, but I think the Spreadsheet handles that just fine.

My personal damage dispersement looks very similarly to yours during raids [25 Man] as well. As for determining whether IP on the WD-OH will out DPS the combined efforts of a poisoned mutilate as well as the deadly poison ticks, does anyone have an idea as to how to model this without hard testing it? Needless to say preferably in raid buffed circumstances.

Updated my modified version of the Spreadsheet with Gear and Gem upgrade checks to now check that you're a JCer before recommending the JC Only Gems, something I had already been thinking about, but was requested as well.

This was the only change, so if you don't really care about that functionality, or liked to see how well those JC Only gems would be over what you could normally socket with, then there's no reason to download it.

Enjoy

* * Roguecraft LK 0.4.7_macro_v2.xls * *

My personal experience (both spreadsheet and in-game) with AP Vs. Agi in a Combat Fist/Dagger build, is that with full 10-man and some 25-man gear AP is prefered over Agi.

Things change however, the closer you come to having near-perfect 25-man gear.

With Roguecraft.AEP.1.3 currently, 2 AP nets me 1,2 DPS. 1 Agility however grants me 1,22 DPS, This advantage towards Agility has just happened to me very recently, and things can easily change towards AP again too.

If I for instance take off FotFF and put on Grim Toll, the numbers change a bit. 2 AP is 1,24 DPS and 1 Agi is 1,24 DPS.

Only because I changed 1 item, a trinket.

Generally I would go with AP. It's the safest bet in almost all cases. At certain gear situations however, Agi is favorable, but you'd have to input your specific gear into a spreadsheet and investigate that for yourself.

It's quite strange that AP and AGI are constantly yielding different amounts of DPS depending on the gear you are currently wearing. Aside from the fact that it "just so happens" is there some sort of statistical / analytical reasoning behind why the favorable stat is constantly shifting? At first I was under the impression that due to the fact that AGI scales with Blessing of Kings, that AGI would almost always provide more DPS. However, the spreadsheet proved me wrong.

As for my gear, I have nearly best in slot for every piece of gear aside from a ring, 2 trinkets, boots, and a couple tier pieces that need upgrading to T7.5. I still see myself yielding the most benefit from gemming for AP at the moment. Also, is there any sort of diminishing return to AGI? For example, I feel as though beyond a certain amount of crit percentage, that AGI would show to be vastly inferior to AP simple due to the fact that your DPS couldn't increase that much by adding to crit when you already have roughly 40% crit chance.