The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 56

Shaithis · 02/24/09, 10:41 AM

Wow, the new rogue glyphs just blew my mind.

Seems like HfB / Mutilate / SnD will become the predominant setup for Mutilate. Anyone run the numbers to confirm?

Improved Poisons talent seems insane now, what the hell are they thinking? No nerf to shiv so DP / IP envenom assassination / shiv with HfB / Rupture / SnD glyphs is going to be insane.

Leto · 02/24/09, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Shaithis

Wow, the new rogue glyphs just blew my mind.

Seems like HfB / Mutilate / SnD will become the predominant setup for Mutilate. Anyone run the numbers to confirm?

Improved Poisons talent seems insane now, what the hell are they thinking? No nerf to shiv so DP / IP envenom assassination / shiv with HfB / Rupture / SnD glyphs is going to be insane.

PPM on IP/Wound, so the poison talents likely have roughly the same effect, but poison application rate on fast weapons goes down.

ieatpaperbag · 02/24/09, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Shaithis

Wow, the new rogue glyphs just blew my mind.

Seems like HfB / Mutilate / SnD will become the predominant setup for Mutilate. Anyone run the numbers to confirm?

Improved Poisons talent seems insane now, what the hell are they thinking? No nerf to shiv so DP / IP envenom assassination / shiv with HfB / Rupture / SnD glyphs is going to be insane.

According to the speadsheet, I was able to drop the SnD glyph and have unchanged dps and instead use the HfB, Mutilate, and Rupture glyphs.

Not 100% if this is the correct way to do this, on the DPS tab I reduced the cost of mutilate by 5 and saw a 1.88% increase in overall dps.

Lys · 02/24/09, 11:15 AM

This makes sense to me, because if Mutilate costs 5 less Energy you will be able to shorten your cycle.

Maybe even Rupture won't make much sense, because you will get too many cp´s in too less time but i'm not the right person to calculate this :P

Wetzilla · 02/24/09, 11:29 AM

I'm a little confused by the HfB glyph. It says it increases dps by 1% per application, but I thought it was a single application now. Am I just not getting something?

Venomous · 02/24/09, 11:32 AM

You are, it must of been a miscommunication amongst departments before/after change - the Glyph is outdated.

songster · 02/24/09, 11:39 AM

Note that the glyphs are datamined - there's plenty of "dead" data in various files that never saw the light of day.

PDonz · 02/24/09, 11:49 AM

As Venomous noted it's definitely an error in communication. I imagine the glyph will be changed to 3%, but the more I think about it, 3% seems a little steep.

Leto, where are you seeing "PPM"? As far as I'm concerned the change to Imp. Poisons and Envenom were just wording changes. Normal Frequency of IP is .2, currently with 5/5 Imp. Poisons you add .1 to that. In 3.1 you multiply it by 1.5, resulting in the same rate of application. Likewise with the Envenom change (of course these won't be multiplicative). Makes me wonder if why they did this in the first place, and why deadly poison wasn't altered. (I can only hope that it doesn't change to PPM and that slow daggers will make a comeback.)

I also think that the new glyph set-up will be: HfB / Mutilate / Rupture. Glyph of Slice and Dice can be replaced with 1/2 Imp. SnD, and with a cheaper Mutilate and higher levels of crit we'll probably just be using an unaltered Slice and Dice. The real pain here is there is no room for Glyph of Eviscerate for our IP/IP/Evis users.

Minka · 02/24/09, 12:00 PM

I wanted to test the PPM of IP as Combat specc with CG in MH. IP on CG, offhand is WD with no posion.
But wowerror ended this test early. Here is the WWS maybe it helps something.

http://wowwebstats.com/wowkrjli4a615

Len · 02/24/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by PDonz

Leto, where are you seeing "PPM"? As far as I'm concerned the change to Imp. Poisons and Envenom were just wording changes. Normal Frequency of IP is .2, currently with 5/5 Imp. Poisons you add .1 to that. In 3.1 you multiply it by 1.5, resulting in the same rate of application. Likewise with the Envenom change (of course these won't be multiplicative). Makes me wonder if why they did this in the first place, and why deadly poison wasn't altered. (I can only hope that it doesn't change to PPM and that slow daggers will make a comeback.)

No, normal chance for proc to happen is now (untalented) 20%, or 0.2. Frequency is a function of time.

If the poison proc goes to PPM, that means that poison damage won't be affected to haste any more, if I'm thinking this right. Has that happened with DK Killing Machine mechanics?

• Aldriana · 02/24/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

I wanted to test the PPM of IP as Combat specc with CG in MH. IP on CG, offhand is WD with no posion.
But wowerror ended this test early. Here is the WWS maybe it helps something.

Wow Web Stats

Okay, just a general request in terms of such testing? Please only equip one weapon at a time. It makes the data a lot easier to deal with.

However, in terms of ballpark figures: there are 1501 swings, of which roughly 35% would be MH hits, so we're looking at about 525 melee attacks; this generated 201 IP procs. This works out to a proc rate in the neighborhood of 38%, which would work out to something around 9 PPM. To get any more accuracy that that, we'll need some more detailed and systematic testing.

songster · 02/24/09, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

However, in terms of ballpark figures: there are 1501 swings, of which roughly 35% would be MH hits, so we're looking at about 525 melee attacks; this generated 201 IP procs. This works out to a proc rate in the neighborhood of 38%, which would work out to something around 9 PPM.

For ease of comparison, with no poison talents (since this was a combat build), that's almost a doubling of proc rate from the base 20%. If that's really the case, that would mean that they've tuned it to a base speed of 1.4 seconds, which would leave Mutilate damage largely unchanged.

Triglet · 02/24/09, 12:28 PM

New user to the spreadsheet, just downloaded the latest version from the first page of this thread -- 0.4.7

Quick question -- I don't see the [Titan-Forged Leather Helm of Triumph] & [Titan-Forged Boots of Triumph] Wintergrasp rewards as a gear options in the spreadsheet. Seems like these beat out some of the blues/older PvP items for pre-raiding or perhaps I am missing something?

Nice tool by the way -- I can tell a lot of effort has been put into this.

NoValidTitle · 02/24/09, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Triglet

New user to the spreadsheet, just downloaded the latest version from the first page of this thread -- 0.4.7

Quick question -- I don't see the [Titan-Forged Leather Helm of Triumph] & [Titan-Forged Boots of Triumph] Wintergrasp rewards as a gear options in the spreadsheet. Seems like these beat out some of the blues/older PvP items for pre-raiding or perhaps I am missing something?

Nice tool by the way -- I can tell a lot of effort has been put into this.

Likely because those items were just recently added to the game as far as I know. There is also a half decent trinket.

Tinwhisker · 02/24/09, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by NoValidTitle

Likely because those items were just recently added to the game as far as I know. There is also a half decent trinket.

I believe the trinket you mean shares a proc with Mirror of Truth and is therefore of no use.

Minka · 02/24/09, 1:22 PM

CG 2.18 speed 280 Haste Ratin (8,54% Haste)
Wow Web Stats

I will Make one with Woundposion.
And one as Mutilate specc with IP on SR in MH slot.

Leto · 02/24/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

CG 2.18 speed 280 Haste Ratin (8,54% Haste)
Wow Web Stats

I will Make one with Woundposion.
And one as Mutilate specc with IP on SR in MH slot.

That would be roughly 10 PPM if it is affected by haste, or 8.45~ if it is not affected by haste.

It's looking like it is not affected by haste, but we'll need a lot more data to come to a conclusion.

Kallistae · 02/24/09, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

I believe the trinket you mean shares a proc with Mirror of Truth and is therefore of no use.

They proc the same spell, but they don't share an internal cooldown if that's what you meant.

Shaithis · 02/24/09, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lys

This makes sense to me, because if Mutilate costs 5 less Energy you will be able to shorten your cycle.

Maybe even Rupture won't make much sense, because you will get too many cp´s in too less time but i'm not the right person to calculate this :P

I don't see how rupture will ever not make sense, as it is always going to be our highest damage per energy finisher. Maybe we'll get a talent somewhere that lets the ticks crit, mm.

magicp · 02/24/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by xcyteZ

I see alot of rogues geming for AGI when according to the spreadsheet I see gemming for AP to be the wiser choice? Is this a flaw or am i seeing things?

My gear is currently at a point where if I replace one AGL gem with an AP gem the spreadsheet starts to favor AGL over AP again. It flip-flops back and forth as I get upgrades. Since the difference is so small I won't bother to swap back and forth between AP and AGL gems every time I get a new piece of gear, it's just not worth it until my gear isn't changing on a nearly weekly basis.

Wetzilla · 02/24/09, 5:06 PM

Looking at the HfB glyph again, I realized it says "increases the bonus damage", rather than "increases the damage bonus." A slight difference, but the wording leads me to believe it's an extra 1% (hopefully 3 if they update it with the new ability) of the 15%, rather than an additional % added on. While this seems kind of weak, a glyph that would just automatically increase dps by 3% seems a bit OP.

Leto · 02/24/09, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by Wetzilla

Looking at the HfB glyph again, I realized it says "increases the bonus damage", rather than "increases the damage bonus." A slight difference, but the wording leads me to believe it's an extra 1% (hopefully 3 if they update it with the new ability) of the 15%, rather than an additional % added on. While this seems kind of weak, a glyph that would just automatically increase dps by 3% seems a bit OP.

If the glyph functions as you just indicated, it would be less than a 0.5% increase. The mutilate one seems much better in that case.

xcyteZ · 02/24/09, 5:54 PM

This may be a bit off-topic but, does anyone have any idea what happened to the promised additional haste brought to mace mastery? I saw a very promising mace combat spec that could've evolved from this as well as "Lightning Reflexes" and I'd be sad to see it unfulfilled.

ShadowEric · 02/24/09, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by xcyteZ

This may be a bit off-topic but, does anyone have any idea what happened to the promised additional haste brought to mace mastery? I saw a very promising mace combat spec that could've evolved from this as well as "Lightning Reflexes" and I'd be sad to see it unfulfilled.

Please remember that they've repeated ad nauseam that this is not all the changes. More class changes will be coming before 3.1 hits the live realms.

Rambaral · 02/24/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by jweick

I have both a question and a request:

Suggestion

I understand your desire to keep the spreadsheet simple and free of a lot of automation. As a mac user, I rely on Open Office to use this tool. There is however somethings I do miss from the old spreadsheet, such as seeing both buffed and un-buffed damage modeled side by side. What would be nice to see the difference between unbuffed/10 man buff/25 man buff in a side by said comparison. It would also be nice to see side by side comparisons of time in relation to the above suggestion.

My reason for asking for this is simple. Assumptions made about best in slot are not always true in every situation. Looking ahead to Uldur, we will most likely be faced with boss encounters that will require us to be say better equipped for burst damage and not allow for long term combo point use/spend (ie Heigan Phase 1). In this situation moving to a slower daggers in a Mut spec can prove beneficial.

Simply put, it takes much time to comb through ever piece of gear 1 by 1, and with so many variables effecting the results, it would be nice to get a better picture of an items value based on common scenarios.

Thank you

I use open office on a mac and pc, the easiest way to have a sheet with buffs and one without is to save a copy. You can have more than one sheet open at once. I have a sheet for Combat, one for mutilate with and without murder, and one with best in slot for upgrade planning.