The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 61

Ticia · 03/17/09, 2:03 PM

Looking at all this data you have collected sp00n, the what I am seeing is that the percentage chance to proc Berzerking and Mongoose is calculated by the game using your *base* weapon speed, and not the hasted speed.

As an example, look at the observed PPM for Berzerking in This post. You had very little haste gear on, and you observed a "PPM with Hasted Speed" of 1.0128, which is outside of the confidence intervals calculated by your most recent data (assuming PPM is off of Hasted Speed).

However, all of the data you have collected falls cleanly into the "PPM with Base Speed" confidence intervals, so that would seem to indicate that the PPM calculations for Berzerking at least (and most likely Mongoose, as it appears to be the same) should be done using the Base Weapon speed, and not the Hasted Speed.

I'm still not sure how this relates to DMM's initial findings about different PPM values from different training dummies, although you don't seem to be seeing that effect, all of your data is consistent across both the 83 Heroic Dummy and the 60 Dummy.

I'm not sure if it is needed, but it might be useful to have a similar sized set of proc data on the same level 60 dummy but with very little haste gear on, just to really verify that the PPM is calculated off of base speed and not hasted speed.

Mavanas · 03/17/09, 3:02 PM

Despite the spread of the 95% confidence intervals, you seem to reject with 95% confidence a hypothesis that PPM of berserking is 1.0.

BTW I forgot to tell you in our private correspondence that I matched pretty closely your calculation of the confidence intervals using standard normal approximation of binomial distribution. I think I was within one proc of your interval.

Dontmindme · 03/18/09, 12:25 AM

I'm going to chalk the initial findings up to luck. What it appears to me looking at all the data is that the answer is 1 PPM and not haste adjusted. Same seems to apply to Mongoose as well.

Now, I know that Mongoose was tested pretty thoroughly back in BC and definitely used to be haste affected. If I were to guess, Blizzard changed the formula from 1.2 haste affected to 1 PPM non-haste affected and that the same formula is being used by Mongoose and Berserking (and probably Executioner now as well, although this has not been tested).

Amante · 03/18/09, 4:38 PM

Quick question:

I'm seeing DPS gains of about 50 DPS with IP/IP if I replace Ruthlessness with Turn The Tables. Is this accurate? Even if I remove it from a IP/DP build and replace it with NOTHING, it's only a loss of 15 DPS.

Is Ruthlessness that inconsequential these days? I remember when it was flat out required, but those were much different days.

My gear may or may not have something to do with it - mainly the two Webbed Death, as I haven't gotten a Sinister Revenge as of yet.

Thoughts?

Infuria · 03/18/09, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Amante

Quick question:

I'm seeing DPS gains of about 50 DPS with IP/IP if I replace Ruthlessness with Turn The Tables. Is this accurate? Even if I remove it from a IP/DP build and replace it with NOTHING, it's only a loss of 15 DPS.

Is Ruthlessness that inconsequential these days? I remember when it was flat out required, but those were much different days.

My gear may or may not have something to do with it - mainly the two Webbed Death, as I haven't gotten a Sinister Revenge as of yet.

Thoughts?

The spreadsheet has never given a real value to ruthlessness. In a perfect cycle, you don't need it. I'm not about to drop it, though. (Unless 3.1 builds absolutely require it.)

• Aldriana · 03/18/09, 4:54 PM

Um, wrong. Ruthlessness has a very significant and important DPS impact, and it is in no way optional; the fact that it shows up that way in some models is more due to flaws in the model than a reflection of the actual value of the talent.

In particular: Ruthlessness enables the ability to do 1-Mutilate 4pt finishers, which in many situations prove to be a DPS increase. There may exist situations where they don't make sense, and determining when this occurs is something the spreadsheets are bad at which is why unusual behavior is sometimes observed. But for traditional IDN cycles, Ruthlessness typically gives DPS gains on the order of 20-30 DPS per point. Less than, say, DW Spec? Certainly. But far from negligible.

Amante · 03/18/09, 5:12 PM

Good to know. I remember how vital it was back in the day so I had a hard time believing it would be on the magnitude of 10 DPS for all three points these days.

How is it with IP/IP Eviscerate? Still better than Annoying Noise Dance (AKA Turn The Tables), I assume?

wykedtron · 03/18/09, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Amante

Good to know. I remember how vital it was back in the day so I had a hard time believing it would be on the magnitude of 10 DPS for all three points these days.

How is it with IP/IP Eviscerate? Still better than Annoying Noise Dance (AKA Turn The Tables), I assume?

If im not mistaken you drop ruthlessness and add improved evis for IP/IP build while keeping TtT. No way around the noise currently unless you went with MP. I think the reasoning behind dropping ruthlessness was to avoid situations of having 4CP after 1 mut and thus potentially wasting 2CP for 5PT evis finishers. Make sense?

• Aldriana · 03/18/09, 6:05 PM

IIV with Ruthlessness could still do 4 point finishers, same as IDN; it's simply that the extra finishers you gain from 4pt finishers are proportionately less valuable, as Eviscerate is a lower damage finisher than Envenom; hence, adapting your cycle in this way tends to make less sense. As to whether it's better to drop TtT or Ruthlessness, I don't currently have a model of that I'm fully happy with; as such, I don't have a solid answer for that.

Gungne · 03/19/09, 7:21 AM

I have read most of this thread, but I cannot see anyone having asked this:

Is there a way to import my char from the armory into the spreadsheet without typing in the values manually?

koaschten · 03/19/09, 8:55 AM

Read the first post perhaps, significant part quoted here for you.

Originally Posted by Vulajin

How do I use it? Basically, the Roguecraft Spreadsheet was never really designed with any users other than me in mind. So, basically the UI is generally accessible but not especially user-friendly. Frankly, I don't think I will change that too much, because I'm far more concerned with the actual accuracy and quality of calculations than I am with the UI. I have no intention to ever include features like Armory Import, or saving talent builds, or things of that ilk. There are also currently no readouts for EP values or anything of that sort. It's very minimal: there is a talent selection sheet with some general settings, a gear selection sheet that should appear familiar to most users of other spreadsheets, a buff selection sheet, and a cooldown settings sheet. All of the calculation sheets are hidden by default; you can find the iterative calculations on "DPS Calc 1," "DPS Calc 2," and "DPS Calc 3," and the corresponding numbered sheets for "Cycles" and "Cooldowns" as well. The final calculations are on "DPS" and "Cycles." All of the gear data is contained in the respectively-named sheets.

Be careful with the sheet, as there is not really any error-checking and it is fragile. Set up your build on the "Talents" sheet, then select a combo point builder (even if you take the Mutilate or Hemorrhage talent, you must specify Mutilate or Hemorrhage as your CP builder; conversely, you can specify one of those as your CP builder even if you don't have the talent for it), a cycle type, and the number of CP to use on each of your finishers. If you wish to pool energy prior to a particular finisher, you can specify that in the column to the right of the cell indicating the number of CP for that finisher. Sorry, but the sheet is not equipped to recommend cycles or gear for you. If you're unsure what cycle to use, you should read Rogue: PvE DPS for some ideas, or just play around until you find something that achieves high DPS. If you wish to take advantage of the more accurate cooldown-stacking modeling without having to specify every single use of your various cooldowns, then set a fight duration longer than 0, and simply change all the yellow-highlighted settings on the "Cooldowns" sheet to FALSE.

kujararanch · 03/19/09, 10:07 PM

Is the expertise somewhat deviated on the spreadsheet or am I using an older version.
My Exp is at 6.5 but however when I use the sheet I get a constant 6.71. I've gone over everything several times but cannot find where that .21 comes from.

falconindy · 03/19/09, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by kujararanch

Is the expertise somewhat deviated on the spreadsheet or am I using an older version.
My Exp is at 6.5 but however when I use the sheet I get a constant 6.71. I've gone over everything several times but cannot find where that .21 comes from.

Expertise in game has always been rounded down to the nearest .25%. 6.01% expertise is the same effective expertise as 6.24%.

• Vulajin · 03/19/09, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by falconindy

Expertise in game has always been rounded down to the nearest .25%. 6.01% expertise is the same effective expertise as 6.24%.

No, it is not. It was discovered around January, I think, that expertise does not actually round down. That's just the character sheet having a mind of its own.

Onodrim · 03/20/09, 5:15 AM

Originally Posted by falconindy

Expertise in game has always been rounded down to the nearest .25%. 6.01% expertise is the same effective expertise as 6.24%.

Should you be interested, some calculations and conclusions regarding whether expertise truncates or not can be found here and in the posts that follow.

FWk · 03/22/09, 4:36 AM

Hello EJ,

First of all I have to commend Vulajin on his spreadsheet; it's excellent and I don't know what I would do without it.
I spent the better part of this evening modifying v0.4.7 to use PPM poisons and adding Ulduar weapons with the objective of quantifying the upgrades. I was mostly interested in getting Wound Poison working with PPM, and evaluating Combat weapon upgrades, not so much Mutilate. The changes I made were fairly simple; I followed the guidelines in the post quoted below, except using 21.4285 as the Wound Poison PPM constant.

According to the result I got, Sword Spec with Malice and Rune-Etched Nightblade is the highest Combat setup without counting hard mode fights (CQC with Golden Saronite Dragon and Golem-Shard Sticker is ahead 21dps, Webbed Death in the OH is close, 13dps ahead of Swords). This isn't very reliable data for sure seeing as how I don't account for any talent changes at all, but it's still helpful for me. For example I'm pretty sure Webbed Death will be better than Kinetic Ripper.

Which leads me to my real question: how do I go about modifying the spreadsheet to account for talent changes such as the haste on lightning reflexes, increasing the debuff on Savage Combat, and reducing the cooldown of AR? I know I could do a total hack job with the first two by modifying the numbers on the DPS tab but I'd like a more elegant approach since I plan to share my modified spreadsheet with the other rogues in my guild. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Originally Posted by PDonz

...

I've calculated the PPM of IP to be 8.5714, (assuming it's based off of a 1.4 speed weapon) although it does seem a bit low, that's what I'm sticking with for the moment. And entered that into DPS.T12. I copied the DPS.Q11 cell and pasted it in DPS.R11, Q representing MH, and R representing OH. And modified both to account for the changes to Envenom and Imp. Poisons as well as the PPM change. Below are the cells for feedback --

MH: =Gear.N12*T12/60+Gear.N12*T12/60*0.1*tip+Gear.N12*T12/60*0.75*cycleenvbuff4
OH: =Gear.N19*T12/60+Gear.N19*T12/60*0.1*tip+Gear.N19*T12/60*0.75*cycleenvbuff4

...

Armanewb · 03/22/09, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by FWk

Which leads me to my real question: how do I go about modifying the spreadsheet to account for talent changes such as the haste on lightning reflexes, increasing the debuff on Savage Combat, and reducing the cooldown of AR? I know I could do a total hack job with the first two by modifying the numbers on the DPS tab but I'd like a more elegant approach since I plan to share my modified spreadsheet with the other rogues in my guild. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

If you go to DPS sheet, you can manually add in another item into the haste calculations dependent on the number of talent points in lightning reflexes. The easiest way to modify the savage combat debuff is just to go to the buffs/debuffs sheet and modify the initial 0.01* in the effect column to 0.02*.

FWk · 03/22/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Armanewb

If you go to DPS sheet, you can manually add in another item into the haste calculations dependent on the number of talent points in lightning reflexes. The easiest way to modify the savage combat debuff is just to go to the buffs/debuffs sheet and modify the initial 0.01* in the effect column to 0.02*.

Yeah that's fairly intuitive and I can make those changes, I guess what I was really asking is, how can I modify/create talents? I see references in places to "tip" and "tcqc" in places for example which stands for talent Improved Poisons and talent CQC, but how are those abbreviations linked to the # of talents taken on the Talents & Settings tab? Is there a place where tip and tcqc are defined? Please excuse me if this is obvious but I don't have formal education or experience with Excel.

Armanewb · 03/22/09, 4:59 PM

Yes, you can rename cells (to the left of your formula bar) to whatever name you have set. As long as there is no overlap, you can then refer to that cell by that name instead of its cell number.

FWk · 03/22/09, 7:33 PM

Thanks for the tip! It's helped me figure out almost everything to update the sheet.
Just a couple more points of confusion:

1) Does Adrenaline Rush stack with Vitality? In DPS.B43 (Build. Adj. DPS) is the following line:

=(((150/(300-60*gar)*tar)+...

Where 150 is the energy gained through AR and 300 is the cooldown (240 glyphed).
Does this mean that when AR is active energy generation goes from 125% to 200% for Vitality specs?

2) I understand how talents are implemented now but what about glyphs? There's a selection list on the Talents & Setting tab but that's all I can find. I'm trying to implement the new Mutilate glyphs (I could hack it by replacing unused glyphs like Expose or Blade Flurry I suppose...)

3) The 20% increased white and Wound Poison damage when the new Killing Spree is active feels difficult to implement given the way KS damage is currently calculated. Specials can't be used during KS, but is it accurate to tack on a flat

*(1+0.2*2.5/120*tms)

to MH, OH and Wound Poison equations, where .2 is the 20% damage bonus from KS, 2.5 is the duration and 120 is the cooldown, and tms is the KS talent.

Armanewb · 03/22/09, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by FWk

2) I understand how talents are implemented now but what about glyphs? There's a selection list on the Talents & Setting tab but that's all I can find. I'm trying to implement the new Mutilate glyphs (I could hack it by replacing unused glyphs like Expose or Blade Flurry I suppose...)

3) The 20% increased white and Wound Poison damage when the new Killing Spree is active feels difficult to implement given the way KS damage is currently calculated. Specials can't be used during KS, but is it accurate to tack on a flat

*(1+0.2*2.5/120*tms)

to MH, OH and Wound Poison equations, where .2 is the 20% damage bonus from KS, 2.5 is the duration and 120 is the cooldown, and tms is the KS talent.

Regarding 2, there are two hidden columns L and M on the Talents and Settings tab that show the on/off functionality of the glyphs. Beyond that, the glyphs are hard-coded into the formulae, as there isn't necessarily as much need to add your own glyphs as there is for items such as gear and gems.

For 3, I would just add an extra *1.2 to the end of DPS.B45 in order to calculate the new DPS for Killing Spree.

FWk · 03/22/09, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Armanewb

Regarding 2, there are two hidden columns L and M on the Talents and Settings tab that show the on/off functionality of the glyphs. Beyond that, the glyphs are hard-coded into the formulae, as there isn't necessarily as much need to add your own glyphs as there is for items such as gear and gems.

For 3, I would just add an extra *1.2 to the end of DPS.B45 in order to calculate the new DPS for Killing Spree.

Thanks again, I wouldn't have noticed the hidden columns on my own.
As for 3, I already did increase the DPS of Killing Spree itself. However,

Killing Spree: Now also increases all damage done by the rogue while active by 20%.

That includes KS damage as well as any white damage and wound poison procs that will happen during the 2.5 seconds.

Armanewb · 03/22/09, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by FWk

As for 3, I already did increase the DPS of Killing Spree itself. However,

That includes KS damage as well as any white damage and wound poison procs that will happen during the 2.5 seconds.

Ah that is a good point. The way I would approach this is by modifying the Killing Spree DPS cell by adding in an "average swings per killing spree" calculation, do the same with poison procs and calculating a net effect of the Killing Spree. While it doesn't provide exact damage potential of timing, it approximately calculates an average scenario.

Mavanas · 03/22/09, 8:55 PM

Originally Posted by FWk

Thanks again, I wouldn't have noticed the hidden columns on my own.
As for 3, I already did increase the DPS of Killing Spree itself. However,

That includes KS damage as well as any white damage and wound poison procs that will happen during the 2.5 seconds.

I would guess that deadly poison will also be affected if it is refreshed during KS. I know DP damage from each stack depends on attack power and damage buffs at the time it is applied, so KS 20% buff should affect it same way. I will leave it up to you to think about how this will affect the spreadsheet.

Solarion · 03/22/09, 10:11 PM

Just started using this spreadsheet, amazing job.

My rogue only recently hit 80, and is still using some leveling blues that aren't pre-included in the spreadsheet's lists. How do I create new gear entries? I don't really want to copy over an existing piece in case I get said piece later on.