The problem is hotfixed by opening the sheet in excel, unhiding the cycles/cycles1/cycles2 sheets, editing the "broken" cells and then pressing enter. It's discussed a few pages back.
I guess many of us is looking forward to when Vulajin's guild will have everything on farm. giving him less wowtime and more spreadsheet time.
Im an excel novice myself, took me some time how to figure out how to input normal gear in Aldriana's spreadsheet.
But I have no idea how to model my trinket in, mark of norgannon, that aint on his list.
We could argue on that since Vulajin doesnt have time, Aldriana could step up and expand his gearlist to not only include the best of the best items.
Im happy with the rough estimate I have now, but an estimate thats right on target would be neat for sure.
I am noticing in both Vulajin and the hybrid spreadsheets that are out the buffs are not working correctly. For example, Trauma has no effect when i mark it TRUE and make Mangle False. The same goes for Rampage/Leader of the pack, Expose Armor/Sunder Armor, Misery/Improved Fairy Fire and a few others. Since they apply the same buffs why would i see a DPS loss when i make the top FALSE and the ones below TRUE?
If they are the same buff, shouldn't they provide the same benefit? And if they are supplying the same benefit, wouldn't the dps contribution of both be the same? Using true for either buff/debuff should yield the same dps.
Last edited by sedrikk : 04/28/09 at 5:23 PM.
Reason: Spelling
For example, Trauma has no effect when i mark it TRUE and make Mangle False.
Since the debuffs (and buffs) have exactly the same effect the sheet offers no way to specify wich one exactly is up. You mark the entire group of equal debuffs as TRUE or FALSE and thats that. Vulajin has been so helpful as to write FALSE in cells that are specify a nonpresent buff and it is thus unwise to assume blank cells would also be implemented in some formula of sorts.
Alternatively if your version of the sheet by some bizarre flaw features a TRUE/FALSE indikator in front of any buff of an equal set other than the first one, delete those entries and use the first rows respective value to indicate if you have the buff or not. Also if the version you use has no associated talent set the value indicating strength of buff to max.
Or redownload a clean version of the sheet where all this is neatly sorted.
PS: Yes the healthbuff has two indicators, but those two are not equal in strength.
I've also noticed that the TRUE and FALSE modifiers sometimes don't work. If you save it and open it again they should. Or you can use 1 and 0 instead of TRUE and FALSE respectively and that will definitely work (and is much easier to work with, but I'm sticking with the easier-to-understand TRUE/FALSE approach that Vulajin put in.
If they are the same buff, shouldn't they provide the same benefit? And if they are supplying the same benefit, wouldn't the dps contribution of both be the same? Using true for either buff/debuff should yield the same dps.
Though i see your point it's not entirely true. Rampage is a proc, trauma is a proc and fairy fire can fall off. I just figured that say leader of the pack increases by 100, rampage would be close, but not quite 100.
A rogue and I are glyphed to ToTT and we use it every CD. Is there a way I can punch this into the sheet? I notice the ToT on CD but this is only taking into the consideration of spending my energy on someone else and not recieving the 25% myself. PM if you can help.
Though i see your point it's not entirely true. Rampage is a proc, trauma is a proc and fairy fire can fall off. I just figured that say leader of the pack increases by 100, rampage would be close, but not quite 100.
A rogue and I are glyphed to ToTT and we use it every CD. Is there a way I can punch this into the sheet? I notice the ToT on CD but this is only taking into the consideration of spending my energy on someone else and not recieving the 25% myself. PM if you can help.
Unless you pool energy and time your abilities around the time you receive the 25% damage increase, you can simply model it as a flat 25%*6/30=5% damage boost. If you time it so you both use tott at the same time and thus can anticipate when you are going to receive the corresponding buff, the benefit will be a bit larger.
The problem is hotfixed by opening the sheet in excel, unhiding the cycles/cycles1/cycles2 sheets, editing the "broken" cells and then pressing enter. It's discussed a few pages back.
I can't say with certainty since I didn't write the Envenom cycle calculations, but yes it's probably correct.
You can see the Master Poisoner talent working in DPS.Q19. The DPS increase from MP appears to suffer from diminishing returns; the first point is worth more than the second which is worth more than the third. This makes sense since we're talking about Deadly Poison which stacks to 5.
Meanwhile TtT, while being a pretty lackluster talent in 3.0.9, increases Mutilate damage by 100 per point on average, or about 25 DPS in the sample Mutilate sheet. I suspect more Mutilates due to the glyph and lower energy required for HfB upkeep contribute to making TtT better.
So in theory, you get more DPS out of one point in TtT than you would by increasing MP from 2 points to 3. Either way it's only a ~10 DPS difference.
Edit: I misread your post and yes it looks like 3 points in TtT is being shown as the highest DPS. I would have to stand by the numbers and say that it's probably accurate, still. Certainly a weird result I wasn't expecting, but I guess 300 extra damage on every mutilate outweighs higher DP stacks and higher Envenoms. Unfortunately TtT is difficult to test outside of a raid environment when tanks provide 100% uptime.
I can't say with certainty since I didn't write the Envenom cycle calculations, but yes it's probably correct.
You can see the Master Poisoner talent working in DPS.Q19. The DPS increase from MP appears to suffer from diminishing returns; the first point is worth more than the second which is worth more than the third. This makes sense since we're talking about Deadly Poison which stacks to 5.
Meanwhile TtT, while being a pretty lackluster talent in 3.0.9, increases Mutilate damage by 100 per point on average, or about 25 DPS in the sample Mutilate sheet. I suspect more Mutilates due to the glyph and lower energy required for HfB upkeep contribute to making TtT better.
So in theory, you get more DPS out of one point in TtT than you would by increasing MP from 2 points to 3. Either way it's only a ~10 DPS difference.
Edit: I misread your post and yes it looks like 3 points in TtT is being shown as the highest DPS. I would have to stand by the numbers and say that it's probably accurate, still. Certainly a weird result I wasn't expecting, but I guess 300 extra damage on every mutilate outweighs higher DP stacks and higher Envenoms. Unfortunately TtT is difficult to test outside of a raid environment when tanks provide 100% uptime.
Nah, just difficult to solo test. Just go to IF with a tank, have a fellow guildmate naked and using grey weapons beat on him while you hit the target dummy.
On the TtT vs. MP I've found it pretty gear dependent in the modeling I've done using the simulation sheet & the Mutilate version of Aldriana's sheet. For Rg my (now) rogue main a mix of 2/3 MP & 1/3 TtT appears mildly optimal. The talents really are very close together in terms of benefit and so things like where you are vs. the spell hit cap, haste rating etc. all seem to impact the final outcome somewhat (although MP does suffer badly from diminishing returns and so it is unlikely that 3/3 is ever optimal unless your gear is pretty poor).
Why aren't any of you brilliant people working with Rawr guys to make a model for rogues? That program is very slick...just does not work for rogues.
This was touched on by Aldriana back at the end of TBC: RogueCalc (Also posts #20, #23, and #24 in that same thread. He also rehashed the same thing here: PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion.
Basically, at the time we were looking at doing a rawr-like program, Rawr didn't have all the features needed for rogues (and it still might not, I haven't looked at it recently), so it was decided to not worry about it.
The Bloodcrush Cudgel from Uld 10 man trash is still named Bonecrush Cudgel in the newest(LC_v0.5.3_Combat_Ulduar_0.4.7_excel.xls) sheet. I think that was the early PTR name before it was changed. Easily enough remedied, just a heads up since I think it's the best offhand mace available right now. Folks what gets a Vulmir are likely to find themselves hunting for it and being confused like I was.
As combat swords with naxx25/uld10 gear I am seeing that a 5s/5r rotation yields about 20dps more then a 5s/5r/5e with 3 points in vile poisons and only 2 in relentless strikes. I get a slight increase in SS damage, slight decrease in poison damage and then a bigger increase in rupture damage then the loss of evis damage. This is also a dps increase over 5s/5r/5e with 5 in relentless strikes. Anyone else getting this?
Also, I set the T8 4 piece to true and I got an even bigger dps difference, ~80 with 5s/5r vs 5s/5r/5e.
As combat swords with naxx25/uld10 gear I am seeing that a 5s/5r rotation yields about 20dps more then a 5s/5r/5e with 3 points in vile poisons and only 2 in relentless strikes. I get a slight increase in SS damage, slight decrease in poison damage and then a bigger increase in rupture damage then the loss of evis damage. This is also a dps increase over 5s/5r/5e with 5 in relentless strikes. Anyone else getting this?
Also, I set the T8 4 piece to true and I got an even bigger dps difference, ~80 with 5s/5r vs 5s/5r/5e.
I got the same results, and to expand a bit, I got even more dps from 4s/5r cycle (mind I am glyphed KiS, SS, and Rupture). What puzzled me is that with a 3s/5r cycle I maintained 100% S&D uptime and yet my dps fell compared to 4s/5r.
As 5s/4r/5e (my previous top dps cycle) I got:
149.8 dps from Rupture and 107.98 dps from Eviscerate = 257.78 finisher dps (excluding S&D and completely unbuffed).
As 4s/5r (my new top dps cycle) I got:
273.95 dps from Rupture alone = a 6.27% increase in my finisher dps and a .625% overall dps increase.
Now what I'm wondering is whether or not this information is accurate.
Well, from personal experience i can say that i can't do just 3s or 4s with 5r, because i get combo points and have nothing else to do with them except Eviscerate.
Maybe it's because im CQC, i also use the same glyphs.
I've been playing both specs (3/3 vile as well as 5/5 relentless) in uld25, since I'm CQC I do crit quite a bit(~52-55% in 25mans), and often find myself SSing at 5CPs to avoid energy cap'ing to maintain the 5s/5r cycle, as well as clipping SnD ofc. Sheets do prove that this is still the best rotation, just feels a bit strange "wasting" CPs (since there isn't time to evisc and get 5 new CPs to keep 100% rupture uptime). There has to be a break-even point where allowing for a few seconds of rupture downtime is worth it for the "extra" evisc, some feedback on this would be appreciated. Hell, sometimes I even get so many CP procs and SS glyph procs that I have time to do 5s/5r/5e with 100% snd+rup uptime.
One question I haven't been able to find an answer for from the sheets is during cooldowns when energy regen is high (be it AR or just BF+bloodlust), we're ofc forced(well, maby not forced, but we're at least able to while still keeping 100% snd and 100% rup uptime) to use other finishers than just rupture, but would it (esp during BF or BF+BL since poison reapplication rate is so fast here) be worth using envenom instead of 1-2 eviscs at this point seeing how we have 3/3 vile? I mean, with either BF, BL or BF+BL up as well as the envenom buff, the DP stack should get up to 5 again within a few seconds. I guess the question becomes how many DP ticks can we afford to lose before evisc_damage+lost_DP_damage > envenom_damage.
Are you under the belief Rawr runs in WoW as a 3rd party executable?
Cause they really don't have anything to do with each other like that. It is a 3rd party program, but separate and standalone app doing its calcs.
No, I'm under the belief that Rawr is NOT an addon, and is a standalone app instead. Third party executables don't "run in WoW"; the only things that run from within WoW are addons interpreted by WoW's lua engine.
There's no shortage of people trying to steal account information for whatever purpose though, so I'm even more leery than usual when it comes to an application written for a WoW-related purpose.
Not to derail this too much, but Rawr's source code is available, it has nothing nefarious, it's not a true executable in the most extreme sense because it runs on top of a framework, and its not malware.
04/27/09, 7:48 AM
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