So, I can't comment specifically on how Vulajin's sheet handled it, of if Vef has addressed it further since; however, as someone with a bit of experience with spreadsheet writing, I'd like to make a few comments on the issue. Honestly, this is a topic of active "research" (for lack of a better term) - improving the cycle model is a major point I've been working on lately. I won't go into all the details of how that works here, as it's probably more appropriate for a new thread, and I'm not quite ready to start one yet.

So, when dealing with spreadsheet cycle modeling, most of the calculation sheets here were originally devised during TBC, where the only sources of variance were Ruthless and Combat Potency procs; now, these are sufficient to cause several seconds variation in cycle length, but are small enough that they could be absorbed by energy pooling. That's a key point to note: Energy pooling can absorb some variance. In fact, given an arbitrarily large energy bar to pool within, one could absorb arbitrarily large amounts of cycle variance - with a 1000-point energy bar, we would likely have little trouble maintaining a rigid cycle even with Glyph of SS. Thus, the original assumption was that you could define a rigid cycle (i.e. 3s5r) and assume that people would pool to maintain this. Also note that some slack was often built into cycles to account for reaction time and some variance as well.

Now, for the first couple versions of my spreadsheet, at least, this was largely the assumption despite the fact that it's patently not true, because honestly it's not a bad assumption anyway. Modeling was done off a 4s5r5e cycle (or whatever) under the assumption that you could pool so as not to overlap ruptures, not to drop SnD, and still get those attacks off with the correct timing. And while this is clearly not possible in practice, it's not actually a terrible estimate of the reality of the situation - the important thing while modeling is not the exact cycle, but the relative attack counts of each move type. So the handwave is that while the 4s5r5e cycle might not be 100% accurate, the relative numbers of slice and dices, ruptures, and eviscerates is about right, such the that the modeling is decent even if the cycle is a bit unrealistic.

However, this is also the reason why of late I've been spending a lot of time thinking about cycles, and why the 1.3 beta of my sheet has a vastly expanded calculations page to try to address this issue. The newest version of the Combat sheet has dispensed with the notion of cycles in favor of attack priorities and working out the number of each move that result. The Mutilate sheet has done this for a while as well. And this is clearly the correct approach, it's just not always easy to do, which is why it's taken some time.

As for the details of how one actually does this - well, that's new-thread territory. And I do intend to raise the issue at some point, there's just some remaining work I want to do first.

Thanks Aldriana.
I understand your points regarding energy pooling even though I can't judge about how realistic it is to assume energy pooling can consume all combat-spec rng. Especially going into mutilate, the variance of random processes there is even higher due to Seal Fate, so it's hard to imagine energy pooling can completely consume it. Besides energy pooling has problems of its own with mutilate. For instance, timing envenoms with DP ticks and trying to pool energy to even 60 often leads to energy capping or disruption of envenom-timing, both of which hurt one's dps. So I would not advise to pool energy while doing envenom-based mutilate and rather focus on timing envenoms to DP ticks.

I am curious about your approach with attack priorities instead of cycles. The artificiality of cycles was one of the big reasons why I took on the simulation approach to estimating dps. Analytical modeling of dps based on attack priorities, if I understand it right, brings it much closer to simulation approach in terms of realism of dps modeling. Yet you don't run into problems with variance of your DPS estimates. So when you do venture into that new-thread territory, I am definitely going to take a look.

Pardon me if I misunderstand the ongoing discussion, since I've only been loosely following this thread of late. It seems that the question at hand is, how does the Roguecraft sheet handle the variance in CP generation and timing introduced by Glyph of Sinister Strike.

The answer goes back to Left's work on the Mutilate modeling in the original Rogue DPS Spreadsheet back in BC. He devised a calculation table which took, as inputs, your desired number of CP (X) and your various CP-generating procs/talents/whatever. Then, based on whether you were using Mutilate or SS/BS, it would calculate your likelihood of reaching X CP, or of overshooting it and hitting X+1 or X+2. It would also calculate the average number of combo moves performed to reach each amount. In his implementation, the averaging was done at this point to figure out how many combo moves you'd perform per cycle as well as how many CP you'd generate.

I deferred the average calculation a little longer. First I calculated the results of running a cycle consisting of each combination of possible outcomes, i.e. if you're running (X+)s/(Y+)r, then we'd want to simulate Xs/Yr, (X+1)s/Yr, (X+2)s/Yr, Xs/(Y+1)r, etc. The damage output, cycle length, and all the other quantities of these cycles are each computed separately, and then averaged together based on the likelihood of their occurrence. Unless Vef has greatly changed the sheet, you can see all this stuff at work on the Cycles calculation sheet.

A couple of bug notes on this spreadsheet.

-It is displaying my haste 20.16% instead of the 10.16% in game and on the 3.2 sheet. I believe this is just a display error.
-Both sheets list my Agility as 1418, but in game it is 1424. Is this a rounding error?

Also, a non-bug (i think). Those of you using "Victor's Call/Vengeance of the Forsaken (Faction Champions-10)" may notice a dps (And AP) decrease. This is because he removed the flat AP from the trinkets and added them to the cooldowns 1 sheet. It took me a few minutes to figure out where the big drop in AP was coming from.

Did you consider Lightning Reflexes?

I don't recall if Vulajin's sheet had the option or not, but if so: did you choose the correct race?

The trinket doesn't have flat AP, you gain the (stacking) AP bonus on use and with a 2 minute cd. So without being able to download and check the spreadsheet at the moment I still think he implemented it correctly and you are somehow mistaken as to how the trinket works.

I decided to play around with the 3.2.2 version of the sheet for Mutilate. My goal was to see when I could break my 4 set t8 and run an Envenom Only cycle.

I set the cycle to Xe(CttC) and I check the DPS tab. Sure enough this drops my DPS alot as 0 damage comes from Rupture.

I change a few things up (reallocate the points from Blood Splatter etc) and I have a look at my DPS.

Here is where my problem is...

No matter WHAT pc of my t8 I drop, I lose DPS. Many times alot. I could put the absolute BEST pc of gear in, and I lose DPS. For example, I replace my Conq Terrorblade tunic with the Hard Mode Jarax Tunic and I lose DPS. Same thing for any slot.

How does this make sense? If I am using a Xe(CttC) cycle, and I have 4pcs of t8.5 equiped, then dropping 1pc for an obviously better pc shouldnt lower my dps. I am not losing my 2pc t8.5 bonus, as I will still have 3pcs left.

It should be a flat upgrade.

Not saying it should be an upgrade over the 4pc t8.5 with a Rupture based cycle, but if my DPS using a cycle of Xe(CttC) with 4pc t8.5 equiped (for baseline reasons) is 8k, then swapping out 1pc of t8.5 for a BiS pc, should increase my dps over 8k. Some slots more than others. This isnt the case for me. Every slot is a downgrade.

Why?

With the ArP nerf confirmed now, which field(s) do we need to update to make the spreadsheet reflect the change.

I've searched for both "Blood Fury" and "Berserking" and haven't seen any recent discussion. I'm interested with the impending race change options as to which is better (I know eventually in the expansion this will all change). I've played around with Vef's version of the sheet, and it appears that Troll is anywhere from slightly behind (dual axes/fists & under the expertise cap) to slightly ahead (axe/sword or fist/dagger and going a bit over cap) to decently ahead (if not using fists/axes or are already over the expertise cap). This makes sense with my gut sense. Is there any reason to doubt the implementation of the racials in this sheet?

I fixed the bug where rupture crits were still included in "all mh types" in the dps sheets even if you had no t84pc.
Also ArmorPen changed in 3.2.2 sheets

In the dps tab, the Hit column for Rupture doesn't seem to take away the crit if you have the t8 bonus. The crit part also doesn't seem to take into account the 3% for master poisoner/Heart of the Crusader- sorry if I'm being an idiot and rupture just uses base crit or something.

After some testing with the 3.2.2 Mutilate Spreadsheet changing gear setups etc. I found somethin which is confusing me. When I change my 4piece T8 set to 5 piece t9 (Ilvl245) I loose around 80 DPS. Now I'm asking me is the rupture crit boni really that strong for Mutilate that i need 4piece of Heroic t9 before I break T8 boni. Or is it just some calculation failures in the sheet because of a bug?

Yeah the legs are pretty nice, that will be the random slot I will wear, and than 4/5 t9 Heroic (lol will only take months till I got all 4 pieces).

But when I change my T8 4Piece to T9 2Piece and 2Piece T8 (Combat specc) I receive an increase in DPS of 40.

Just wanted to confirm if this makes sense, as similar to others I am trying to figure out when it makes sense to break the T8 4pc bonus. I use both mutilate and combat specs, combat on non-murderable bosses. Using Vef's mutilate spreadsheet, it shows that switching my 4 T8 pieces for 4 T9.245 pieces would actually lower my dps by about 80.

Whereas when I use Aldriana's combat spreadsheet, the same switch nets me a gain of about 107 dps. Just a little surprised there is such a disparity between the two sheets on breaking the T8 4pc bonus, though I realize that my ruptures will hit harder when I'm using mutilate.

For completeness, I just want to add that using the simsheet, swiching from t8 4pc to 4 t9.245 pieces (all but leggings), and using a mix of ulduar hardmode and regular toc off pieces, gives me a dps increase of 85 for combat.

For mutilate going from t8 to t9.245 is 120 dps increase. So the results based on Vef's spreadsheet do look suspicious.

In the 3.2.2 combat sheet, the damage for Lionhead Slasher(ilevel245 one) is off, it should be 295, but it's listed as 314.5, my guess is you used the old 1.6 dmg range, rather than the updated 1.5 damage range.

It's not the speed. It's the damage parameters. The actual damage range for the axe (Blood Fury for Horde) is: =(206+384)/2

i still have some item level 200 gear, and most of these sheets dont have anything below 213. so, is there a way i can upgrade or combine one of the newer versions of vulajins? like combine Vefs with vulajins? i really dont know much about excel, but i've come to depend on this sheet, and the other sheets seem to be the same way with the gear now to. cant even get mavanas's simulator to work fro me.

short question: when i hit the gear/gem upgrade check button it cycles all possible items and then stops when it has passed and nothing happens... what are these buttons supposed to do? how should i use them? i couldn't find any helpful post in here... thx in advance

You may want to check the stat allocations made to the The Diplomat/Widebarrel Flintlock(Valkyries-10) in the 3.2.2 Mutilate Sheet. I think you have the hard mode item in there only and no 10 man regular mode equivalent. I noticed this because the sheet was telling me this was an upgrade over Crimson Star with a 51/7/13 build and 4p 8.5. I thought that was odd so checked Aldriana's sheet to see if it gave the same result - it didn't - Crimson Star is significantly better than the 10 man version of this item.

Apologies if you have already spotted this but I thought I'd mention it in case you hadn't so as to give an opportunity for it to be checked and (assuming I'm right) amended in the next version.

Vef:

When it comes to food buffs in your 3.2.2 Combat spreadsheet, why isn't Fish Feast a selectable choice? Or is Mega Mammoth Meal simply better?

They are exactly the same. The only benefit from [Fish Feast] that we get is 80 AP, the same as [Mega Mammoth Meal] and [Poached Northern Sculpin].

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't SP increase poison damage *slightly*? Or are poisons affected by AP only?