Gaviin

SP does not affect poison damage.

 

Kultoros

Here is a spec that I came up with, works very well with the recent changes to both master poisoner and envenom.

I'm calling it HFB fists tentatively, but this is subject to change. Any suggestions will be taken into consideration.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

edit: the glyphs are (obviously) HFB, SS, and Rupture.

Some things to note:
,
1. Stats to stack in order of priority (raw values) - Crit, Haste, AP, Expertise Hit (if youre over the crit cap this might change priority)
I'm not 100% on the points at which AP overtakes the other stats, as no spreadsheet is capable of modeling this, and I dont have the time or patience to modify the current SSheet.

2. Rotation - This quite obviously depends on multiple factors, to simplify matters I will assume that the hypothetical rogue using this spec is wearing 2 pieces of T9.x
I've been reading alot about a ruptureless rotation. I realize that envenom is the superior finisher, but with the possibility of gaining a free combo move (which equates to an envenom for 10 energy, most of the time), the ideal rotation for this spec involves envenom whenever the buff granted by the aforementioned skill is not active, and rupture in the case that you find yourself with 4 cp, and an amount of energy that will likely cap before the envenom buff wears off.

3. Variations - The only points that are interchangeable, are the 3 in turn the tables, and the 2 in CQC spec; All of the others are either necessary to rotation, or necessary as filler.


/flame shield up

youre thinking spell crit.

 

Istaril

Garbage; even if SS *were* a combo move than mutilate; which it isn't (especially without the SS damage increasing talents further in combat) why would you spend a point in mutilate at all? Why would you spend 3 extra points in Turn the Tables (6% crit for SS, assuming 100% uptime) instead of 3 in QCQ (3% crit for *all* your MH attacks, all the time). Furthermore, murder is less attractive considering it doesn't work or is irrelevant in most ToC fights, and depending on gear, there's not a huge incentive to take Blood Spatter.

If you really felt like it, you could run this in the simsheet easily. But you'd be wasting 5 minutes of your time to tell you what we all already know; there's no reason to use SS if you have access to mutilate. There might be *a* borderline case where your MH Fists is ToC BiS, and your MH dagger is absolutely abysmal.

 

Mavanas

He posted this in simsheet thread before, but it got deleted or moved. I did try it in simsheet out of curiosity and it came up 500 or 600 dps lower than mutilate. This spec just does not make any sense. I think even a spec based on backstab would work better.

 

Kultoros

that point in mutilate was a mistake. I dont actually have that in my current spec, I was posting this on a couple hours sleep, and put it there out of habit. Regarding murder and blood splatter: there is no other place to put those points.
I thought that was fairly obvious.

the reason i opted to spend those points in turn the tables is because SS, when it crits, is a very efficient combo builder. a four point finisher for 40 energy is the best potential cp gen out of any spec besides HaT, RIP. I should also point out, that mutilate, when it does not crit, causes you to have to spend 110 energy to build towards one finisher. Worst case scenario with this spec, is 120, and that is assuming 2 non crits is a row, which as i'm sure youre aware becomes much less likely with the addition of 6% crit to combo moves, over 3% to all hits (except poisons)

what kind of gear were you using in the sim sheet? note that with 2 points in quick recovery, it is not necessary to cap expertise, so the optimal gear for this spec leans more towards crit and haste.

 

Istaril

There is no reason to use mutilate. Rough napkin math;

Let us assume 45% unbuffed crit.
A sinister strike, for 40 energy, returns 1 combo point 55% of the time
A sinister strike, for 40 energy, returns 2 combo points 22.5% of the time
A sinister strike, ... returns 3 combo points 22.5% of the time
A sinister strike, for 40 energy, returns 1.675 combo points on average; 0.041875 CP/energy

A mutilate, for 55 energy, returns 2 combo points 16% of the time
A mutilate, for 55 energy, returns 3 combo points 84% of the time (60% MH crit, 60% OH crit, 16% chance of no crits)
A mutilate, for 55 energy, returns 2.84 combo points on average; 0.0516 CP/energy

However, Mutilate is *less* spiky; it will take at most 2 mutilates for a viable (4+) finisher, which will waste at most 1 cp.
Sinister strike is *more* spiky; it will take at most 4 sinister strikes for a viable (4+) finisher, which will waste at most 1 cp.
Both can get a viable finisher in 1GCD, although Mutilate will do so >1.86 times as often.

Comparing a recent algalon parse between two comparably geared rogues (rough estimate, but it will do); Mutilate will do about 6820 damage for 55 energy (124 DPE), SS will do about 4070 for 40 energy (101 DPE). Even if these numbers are from actual situations and may not be representative, your spec is missing out on 35% SS damage from talents, and trading it for 18% Hfb+6% FW; net loss of 11% SS damage, reducing your DPE to somewhere in the vicinity of 90.

Combat relies on ideal weapons to deal high auto-attack damage, high energy returns compensating for lower DPE. Assassination offsets less ideal weapons (daggers) by a better combo-point builder and poison damage, and less energy wasted on SnD (for instance). You've taken the best of both... and thrown them out the window.



But prove my napkin math wrong; use Mavanas's simsheet and show us a DPS increase.

 

cerin616

Some other things to point out, the assassination tree does not compare to combat on energy regeneration, and with such a decrease in DPE on the main combo builder would make energy efficiency a severe problem. To use the much slower main hand weapon you will need the haste in the combat tree as well, which is why when 3.1 hit combat became viable due to the haste boost to heightened reflexes. Also, unless it has changed since the ArP nerf, combat mace is still one of the best specs as it applies the advantage of an armor ignorant attack such as envenom to Eviscerate. I can see where your idea is coming from, but the math just isn't there.

 

Kultoros

do you mind my asking what weapon speed has to do with haste rating?

to the mod who banned me for posting a spec that noone else had thought of, are you against free speech in general, or only as it relates to the hallowed WoW rogue class?

 

candid

inb4 ban

copy pastad from WOW rogue forums

using fist/dagger for this HFB spec and BiS combat agi gear , and ruptureless cycle btw(due to crit capping issues i used only the heroic death's choice and comet's trail and still had to use a few AP gems), then comparing the results to bis combat axe gear (full agi gemming with both death's choice trinkets, using rupture) i got this

Baseline DPS 9,926
Latest DPS 9,858
Percent Difference -0.69%


then i went with the armor pen combat axe evis spam build, same gear used i got

Baseline DPS 9,926
Latest DPS 9,900
Percent Difference -0.27%

bottom line is, with bis gear this spec is definately a valid spec, is it possible at lower gear levels? well given ippons info i really doubt it



heres a dl of the simulation spreadsheet setup for this build

Download Rogue Simulation 3.2.2b(2).xls


i havent run more sims yet but,

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

seems to be a better spec

 

Istaril

That's because, even assuming the sheet was set up correctly, you're comparing BiS Assassination fists to BiS Combat; a more accurate comparison is to one using a mutilate finisher (typical assassination) which will out-perform your spec considerably (in simulation setups).

Comparing to combat is unfair, because you have none of the advantages of combat; no AR/BF/KS cooldowns to take advantage of double-damage or high-priority phases, no better energy regen for improved FoK spam, and no raid-physical damage buff that are combat's benefits (none of which are accounted for, or not entirely, in simulation setup).

 

candid

mut is about 5% ahead accorrding to the sim sheet, using the same gear with daggers and cookie cutter 51/13/7 spec; but at least some one ran the numbers this time and 5% is surprisingly close enough to continue to watch this spec

 

Istaril

Any chance which increases the relative efficiency of this spec in relation to mutilate must (necessarily) be a buff to the relative value of CQC combat.

The only niche it has is using "better" weapons than daggers (at considerable cost); should these better weapons get even better (or daggers get worse); in order to close the gap between AssassinationFist and true Assassination. Any buff to those weapons will benefit combat even more than it does your AssassinationFist spec; as they benefit more from autoattack damage.

And 5% is a pretty large gap to make-up.

 

Kersey

I run the AssassinationFist spec in the simulator a couple of times and it seems to benefit most from a 51/18/2 with Lightning Reflexes. That should push it another 200 dps. It is still 2% behind a standard mutilate build though, with weapons of similar quality.

 

Mavanas

Candid-
You have murder selected in your hybrid spec, and since the simsheet automatically assumes the target is murderable, it calculates the dps with murder buff. So to compare it properly on a non-muderable target with combat, you need to subtract 4%. So the actual dps of this spec is around 9500, which is worse than both combat and regular mutilate.

 

Fizyx

Let me preface this by saying that I know nothing about spreadsheets. I can make this one work, and that's about it.

Recently I've been looking at trinkets, and I've found that the sheet is giving a DPS decrease pretty much across the board. (For example, it's showing a 29.2 DPS DECREASE compared to the Incisor Fragment from Heroic DTK.) I'm PRETTY sure that this is incorrect, but I have been unable to track down where it's going wrong (or, to be honest, if it's wrong at all and I'm not just missing something). Looking under the DPS Calc 1&2 sheets, they recognize that the trinket is equipped, but I notice that the value of K8 on the gear sheet does not change when equipping/unequipping the trinket, while the value in K9 DOES change when equipping/unequipping a trinket with an Arp proc. (The raw values for Arp/Haste do not change here, just the reported % of each. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it, but its the only discrepancy I could find.) That's pretty much as far as I've been able to follow anything before I get lost. Anyways, am I just crazy wrong, or is there something to this?

EDIT: The Meteorite Whetstone seems to be having the same problem when I plug it in. This leads me to believe its a problem with the haste procs, but I really don't know for sure.

 

Lezz

I thought the purpose of running spreadsheets is to estimate best builds for the highest content released at this time. I could be mistaken, but aren't all targets in Toc 10/25 murderable targets?

thanks for the info

but only faction champions and beasts of northrend are

 

Aéquitas

Only Beasts and Faction Champs are murderable.

 

Akiho

I have noticed something while playing around with gems on the spreadsheet. I had decided to replace all my Shifting Dreadstones with Delicate Cardinal Rubies in order to increase my total agility. Oddly, however, using Vef's newest spreadsheet here is what I come up with:

Item: VanCleef's Pauldrons of Conquest (Blue Socket = +4 Agility bonus)

Shifting Dreadstone = 103 Total Agility (with Socket bonus of 4 Agi), 104 Stam, 103 AP, 52 Exp, 60 ArPEn
Delicate Cardinal Ruby = 109 Total Agility (no bonus), 89 Stam, 103 AP, 52 Exp, 60ArPen

So, effectively on this item I gain 6 agility and lose 15 Stamina by using the Delicate Cardinal Ruby in place of the Shifting Dreadstone. However, when I equip the Shifting Dreadstone for this item, my Total Agility Calculation on the Spreadsheet increases by 15 compared with the Total Agility from using the Delicate Cardinal Ruby in this slot. The item still shows a decrease in Total Agility of 6.

How is this possible? Again, the only thing I gain from using the Dreadstone, that I am aware of is 15 stam.

 

Kersey

It's the meta gem

 

Mierâ

does the comets trail´work correctly in this sheet? i tried out some gear and the comets trail doesn´t chance my dps...hm?

 

Vef

Due to work issues i didn't have the time to upgrade the sheet reguarly, but now i can release the new upgraded sheet with less bugs. I also added an option to enable weapon switch to a dp oh weapon, but this isn't fully implemented to work accurate yet.

Roguecraft 3.2
sp00n's Roguesheet AEP Values

 

Zmann

When using Vef's sheet the "Use Envenom instead of Eviscerate" "1" is showen in red.

I did some looking and found that it is when you have wep swapping off (0) and still have Instant Poison on your off hand. Don't forget you need Deadly Poison on your off hand to use envenom if not wep swapping.

 

Naihet

Even if I'm using Outfitter I have some difficulties to find a good working method to have a good swap.
Can you pls show me some script for Outfitter or some Macro good working?
thanks in advance!

 

bural

With all respect for the work Korner did porting my macros to Outfitter, I still think the Outfitter solution isn't really optimal and you're kinda using a sledgehammer to crack a nut - or however it is the english saying goes.

Personally I prefer the paraphrased "initiate and toggle"-version Grigori posted here: Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion