I tried Mutilate and Combat Swords as Shiv and Sinister Strike on the PTR, with some unenchanted blue/Kara mix.
Sinister Strike spam was ~750, Shiv spam was ~950, Mutilate ~1150 (I forgot that I had Hunger for Blood, and I had no Relentless Striked because I wanted to check something else).

So, seems fine to me from the calculation. I agree that it doesn't feel appropriate though.

Just got a dagger with:

Enchant Weapon - Berserking - Spell - World of Warcraft

The tooltip for the Buff says increase your Strength by 400, but it increases your AP by 400 just like the enchants says. I am gathering some combat logs for the proc rate right now should post them some time later today.
--Note Sense Tool tip waste fixed in a recent update.

Update: The buff is 15secs -25% armor

Combat logs says

12:19:00 Gain Berserking
12:19:01 Refreshed Berserking
12:19:04 Refreshed Berserking

So it appears to have no cool down on proc.

Here is about 1 hour 10mins of me Auto-attacking a target Dummy if anyone is interested.

Berkering Log File

I was trying to find out how two fast daggers without deadly poison would work.
I've played with a few knobs and it looks pretty good at least.

I was aiming at 2 specific situations:
a) Using dual Instant Poison, and somebody else is keeping a poison debuff on the mob.
b) Using Instant/Wound Poison to keep a poison debuff on the mob.

Now, your sheet correctly murders the Mutilate damage contribution with dual Instant Poison due to the lack of a poison debuff.
I tried to hack your sheet to pretend some 1-stack Deadly Poison was ticking or so, but wasn't successful.

Would it be possible to add a global "is poisoned by someone else for X% of the time" tag?
Or maybe add Wound Poison as poison and debuff, although that sounds more complicated.

I wonder, while I was doing my PTR testing of a level 70 combat build against a level 60 target, does your sheet take into account level difference (resp. difference in defense to weapon skill) in terms of crit rating?
I checked for level 70 to 73 and manually for level 60 (hacked that value into the select list for target level), and the crit rate changes only marginally:

L 60:	29.38%
L 70:	29.34%
L 71:	29.33%
L 72:	29.31%
L 73:	29.24%

As far as I know, and how the DPS Spreadsheet does it, each level of difference changes the crit rate by 0.2%.
Yours seems to be only affected by the dodge rate.

I was only short of 30 DPS from actual to predicted DPS, yet I assume that Prey on the Weak wasn't active during my tests (these mobs don't lose health, so they never drop below 100%), but if I disable PotW for the build, the sheet falls behind a good 80 DPS. Which could have been due to the increased crit rate.

Perhaps this is the wrong thread, but by reading the "new" gem-advices, i was shocked/confused. Of course, I allready know, that with 3.0 and WOLTK poison-dmg scales directly with ap. And i know too, that the right "mixture" of stats is the base for a good dps.

My question: does the new scaling for poison dmg make direct ap-geming so powerfull, so that as mutilate-rogues we can ignore other stats like agi and hit? Until now, I thought it will be the old story, looking for agi primary and hit secondary.

And as second thought: since yesterday I dropped enchanting in order to skill weapon-mastery regarding 5 extra gem-slots in WOTLK. But if direct ap-geming is so strong for mutilate, than it was a bad deal: because of the new ring-enchants with 40 ap per ring (=80 ap) vs. 5x 20 ap gems with 100 ap. 20 ap doesn't make a huge difference - except the tons of gold for dropping enchanting and skilling weapon-mastery.

A short comment or short numbers concerning the "new" gem-advices would be nice. (Sorry for bad english.)

You don't ignore the other stats - you just don't socket for them. Fundamentally, nothing is being suggested here that we haven't already be doing. In all cases, you figure out what gear is best by the aggregate impact of all the sats on it, and wear the best one; you then fill sockets with whatever stat gives the most benefit. At 70, this was widely thought to be hit for combat rogues and agility for Mutilate rogues. This did not mean that, when selecting gear for combat, you could ignore all stats other than hit; you picked whichever gear was best, based on all stats, and whatever your hit wound up at was fine. Similarly, at 80, it currently appears that AP will be the best stat, so you will socket with that. But it's not a matter of "ignoring" stats or "neglecting" balance - you should still be using the best gear available, this is just commentary on how to socket it.

Having "balance" in gemming make sense almost never happens, unless you have two stats that are very very close in value (or a cap to worry about). As a general rule, the best approach is and has always been to pick the best gem and use it everywhere you can. At 70, that's hit for combat and agi for Mutilate. At 80, it's currently projected to be AP.

It seems this has gone unnoticed:

The Human Racials Sword/Mace Spec have been lowered from +5 expertise to +3 while the Dwarven Mace Spec is still +5

This is for LK Beta so somebody should check if this is the same on 3.0 PTR (both the LK 3.1 and BC 4.0 sheets use +5 for Humans)

Sword Specialization - Spell - World of Warcraft


Edit: Link to Spell on wowhead

Basing on my tests mentioned above, I compared the results from the sheet to the actual results, for both Sinister Strike and Shiv. No special Shiv build was used though, I only replaced SS with Shiv on my action bar. Also no Shiv glyph was used.

I also edited the sheet to account for 0.2% crit chance in-/decrease per level difference (see below), which made the predicted DPS for Shiv very much in line with the actual DPS. However, this is only for the general outcome, detailled DPS still has some non-marginal differences.

In summary, poison damage is a bit overestimated, while melee damage is underestimated by quite some margin. I can provide the combat logs if it helps.


Note that Prey on the Weak was most certainly not working for the test, since the undead ogres do not lose health while being attack and are stuck at 1/1 health (and therefore always at 100%). Hence I selected 0/5 talent points for PotW.


Sinister Strike

Cycle:	5s5r(+5e)
Seconds:	2712
DPS:	1717.4

* I removed Garrote from the equation, this is why the DPS is a bit lower than in my other posting

	Damage	%	DPS	.....	Sheet DPS	Difference	Diff %
Melee:	2553300	54.82%	941.48		773.45	168.03	+8.10%
Sinister Strike:	1043262	22.40%	384.68		408.41	-23.73	-2.27%
Rupture:	148768	03.19%	54.86		95.64	-40.78	-2.58%
Deadly Poison VII:	410578	08.82%	151.39		196.18	-44.79	-3.04%
Instant Poison VII:	268906	05.77%	99.15		137.69	-38.54	-2.54%
Eviscerate:	100699	02.16%	37.13		0.00	37.13	+2.16%
Killing Spree:	132066	02.84%	48.70		43.97	4.73	+0.18%
Total:	4657579	100.00%	1717.40		1655.34	62.06	+3.61%

Shiv

Cycle:	5s5r5e
Seconds:	1270
DPS:	1772.8

	Damage	%	DPS	.....	Sheet DPS	Difference	Diff %
Melee:	1202579	53.41%	946.91		779.48	167.43	+9.40%
Shiv:	286170	12.71%	225.33		203.73	21.60	+1.21%
Rupture:	66957	02.97%	52.72		79.71	-26.99	-1.53%
Deadly Poison VII:	165145	07.33%	130.04		172.09	-42.05	-2.38%
Instant Poison VII:	389089	17.28%	306.37		405.85	-99.48	-5.64%
Eviscerate:	77987	03.46%	61.41		86.27	-24.86	-1.41%
Killing Spree:	63551	02.82%	50.04		43.72	6.32	+0.35%
Total:	2251478	100.00%	1772.82		1770.85	1.97	+0.11%

The changes in the sheet:
Added "-((blevel-clevel)*0.2%)" to cell B17 - K17.
Not added to P6 (instant poisons), because I don't know if and how spell crit rate changes with level difference.

The edited sheet used

Just one very minor fix for the spreadsheet: The debuff "Blood Poisoning" on the Buffs tab (Buffs!G24) should be changed to "Savage Combat".

I had a question for Vulajin (or Aldriana or Spoon or other more numerically inclined rogues), and please forgive me if this seems to be in the wrong place. I used the latest version of your sheet to test out different builds for raiding once 3.02 goes live and before we start leveling in wrath. It showed using a 5/51/5 combat swords build with my gear (full sunwell minus the Twins Bow/Thoridal) and warglaives to be 30 DPS or so ahead of a 51/5/5 mutilate build with Brutal Shanker/Shiv. Is this about what you would expect based on your PTR/Beta experience so far? The reason I ask is that there are a number of rogues that I respect making statements on the general rogue forums like "Once 3.0 hits, warglaives are relegated to bank epeen anyway. Everyone will be mutilate for pve."

Note I could not equip Fang of Kalecgos as a mainhand (this is my other mainhand dagger option which would presumably yield more dps in a raid environment than Brutal Shanker).

If you scroll back a bit - you'll see my math on the subject (while not a respected math Rogue like the others).

Your results pretty much tally with what I see. (Note, I'm human, so I get a bonus for using the swords)

Using Mutilate with my gear was 3022. Using Combat Swords with my gear and Sinister Strike was 2986. (No MH Glaive, mid-Sunwell gear). If I equip the MH Glaive it becomes 3100.

Using Shiv fror CP generation, combat goes ahead a bit further (from memory 3070-ish in my gear).

However, I don't see Shiv as a viable CP generation for 3.0.2, as almost certainly Blizzard will balance it.

So yeah - your numbers are in concordance with mine. Glaives are still great (especially if you are human)

Attempting to use the Roguecraft BC 0.4.0.xls spreadsheet in OO 2.4 gives errors in the White DPS entry, and gives "#DIV/0!" errors in most of the %DPS columns of that same table.

I'm not exactly sure what sort of information would be most useful in diagnosing the problem, so just tell me what info would be most helpful and I'll get it for you.

EDIT:

I just bought Office to fix the problem (lol), but tomorrow I'll get screenshots of the broken parts of the spreadsheet. After fiddling with it in Excel, I've become much more familiar with how it SHOULD be working, and I think I can pinpoint the specific problem tomorrow.

Screenshots of all the problem areas, and checking whether the error (or any error) occurs on other sheets (both hidden and unhidden ones), would both be extremely helpful in diagnosing it.

Versions 0.4.1 BC and 0.3.2 LK are available via the download links in the first post. Changes:

- Changes incorporated per build 9014.

The BC sheet indicates that 5/51/5 comes out about 3% ahead of 51/5/5 at Sunwell gear levels using Brutal Gladiator's weapons. The LK sheet indicates that 51/13/7 still comes out about 1% ahead of 7/51/13 at Naxx 10 gear levels. It seems like there's a bit of a scaling problem for Combat, though I haven't yet tried the same builds in Naxx 25 gear to double-check.

It may not be a scaling problem. That may just be an issue with the way the builds unfold with the 10 added talent points. Until it is calculated with gear levels higher than Naxx 10 man to see the trend I would hesitate to say that just yet.

I think though, and according to this post, that 15/51/5 will be the predominant combat spec at level 80, and should slightly out-dps 7/51/13. So perhaps that puts Assassination and Combat on extremely close footing at level 80? That'd be a great thing. Heck, even that 1% difference that you're seeing right now is already pretty cool, to see that they've been able to balance things so closely (even if changes like Blade Twisting are somewhat, shall we say, "uninspired")

I could not reproduce the conditions under which 15/51/5 came out to higher DPS than 7/51/13. It's not something I'm supremely concerned with pursuing at the moment since things are still in flux. Once the talents are finalized I'll look at actual builds and try to see where the discrepancies between my findings and Aldriana's lie.

Just wanted to post about a possible anomaly:
- Vigor seems to not only increase max energy by 10, but also energy regeneration by 10%

Someone else mentioned it, and i sat down on the PTR to try and find out if he was right. Essentially i spammed HfB to get my energy down to 0, and stop watched how long it took to get back to 100%. After repeated trys i couldn't see a difference between the time it took to get back to full for 100e and 110e, which makes me think he's right.

Three things though:
- If it's true it seems unintended
- It's very hard to say whether my measures are at all relevant considering that the PTR isn't exactly the most responsive of realms
- I can't find anything on that anywhere else (alternatively: i suck at searching)

Anyone have some insight to share?

(I posted in this thread because i think it's relevant to modeling DPS, and we use & abuse the sheet for all it's worth :p )

The best way to test this would be to spam an ability like SS on a test subject for an extended period of time (making sure you do not have any energy regen mechanics/talents and to never let you energy cap out) and parse the combat log to find the number of attacks and determine energy usage. Over a long period of time you should get 10% more SS with Vigor than without if it's true.

Good point. I'll try that & report back.

If Vigor DID increase energy regen by 10% that would be awesome and make the talent much more desirable for pve specs.
That said, if it does, I'd imagine it to be a bug since that's definitely significant enough a change to put something in the patch notes about it.

If Mutilate and Combat builds are within 1% of each other, I'd consider them both to be extremely viable and I wouldn't even care if it was Mutilate that was 3980 and Combat was 4020 (~1% difference). I love the Mutilate playstyle and really hope they keep the two specs this close to each other. I'm finally happy and excited about Wrath again. I have been raiding as Mutilate in Live and kinda like having unchallenged access to all dagger drops. I really didn't want to see EVERYONE go Mutilate because Combat sucked so bad and I didn't want to feel like a jerk for speccing Mutilate if Combat Shiv was superior or whatever. This new build makes me a happy guy for the most part.