The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 81

Platt · 02/12/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Blizisyimhot

In case I missed it. Is there a reason why IP on the OH gives such a dps boost over WP for the examples of the fast/fast shiv combat builds? This is for 18/51/2 not taking improved poisons.

This is because IP has always hit harder than WP. The reason why WP was superior without Imp. Poisons is because it has a 50% chance to proc while IP has a 20% chance (possibly 30%, can't recall off the top of my head). With Shiv, you are always proc'ing the OH poison and since IP hits harder, it would do more damage than WP. I hope that is clear, as I may have explained kind of oddly.

zidaen · 02/12/09, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kospire

Why do you want to put a 2.5 speed mace OH ? Less poison damage and less energy from Combat Potency

Combat potency would reduce the damage. It was just more a curiosity. What I was forgetting is that in the end unmodified dps in = haste modified dps out no matter what the speeds of the weapons assuming they are equal dps to start with.

angry dread is 391.5/2.5=156.6 so 391.5/1.25=313.2 and split greathammer is 250.5/1.6=156.56 so 250.5/0.8=313.125.

For some crazy reason I had the idea in my head that slow weapon would scale better with haste. Though it only took me 10 seconds to prove my self wrong

Genre · 02/12/09, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kospire

Shiv Tooltip

Performs an instant off-hand weapon attack that automatically applies the poison from your off-hand weapon to the target. Slower weapons require more Energy. Awards 1 combo point.

If you use shiv ,your offhand poison will 100% proc

so shiv is like an another ss with nature damage bonus

I tried a few things with the spreadsheet. Assuming Shiv is properly implemented, Hailstorm with INSTANT POISON in OH and Webbed death with Wound poison in MH results in DPS that is 1% under CG - Deadly/WD - Wound. This is with 5 Points in CQC and in Sword spec (since we get rid of SS). One can only assume that if a ilevel 226 sword existed, it would beat it.

EDIT: Moving things around, same weapon setup, but with a spec 7/51/13 and a rotation of 4s/5r gives me DPS equal to CG/WD. Glyphs are rupture/AR/BF.

Kospire · 02/12/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Genre

Moving things around, same weapon setup, but with a spec 7/51/13 and a rotation of 4s/5r gives me DPS equal to CG/WD. Glyphs are rupture/AR/BF.

So you think 7/51/13 shiv build outperforms 18/51/2 shiv build .

AR glyph is useless for most fights

Genre · 02/12/09, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kospire

So you think 7/51/13 shiv build outperform 18/51/2 shiv build .

AR glyph is useless for most fights

I didnt think... I just toyed around. But you are correct. 18/51/2 gives more... About 40DPS more then CG/WD. The rotation is 4s/5r. Glyphs remain the same since I dont know what else to pick. In Ass you put 3 points in vile poison.

AR glyph gives 2 uses in a 5 minute fight. Every time I try to squeeze in eviscerate, I lose DPS.

MentalPROblem · 02/12/09, 6:33 PM

Doesn't it mean that in the end, the best what we can get is:
51/13/07 Mutilate 4e/4r(CttC) WD/WD IP/IP Rup/SnD/Evi
with this specc: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I mean that Mutilate still outdoes any of the combat builds right now, right?

Keyser · 02/12/09, 11:54 PM

The spreadsheet doesn't trigger Combat Potency procs from Shiv attacks, does it?

While Shiv builds are being discussed, you're saying Blizz failed in their attempt to nerf Shiv builds by removing Shiv from triggering CP procs?

When you add coefficients from gimmick fights, won't DPE on SS builds scale much higher? Sorry for being a nub, but there's something whacked with Shiv being a viable end game raid spec.

Genre · 02/13/09, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by Keyser

The spreadsheet doesn't trigger Combat Potency procs from Shiv attacks, does it?

While Shiv builds are being discussed, you're saying Blizz failed in their attempt to nerf Shiv builds by removing Shiv from triggering CP procs?

When you add coefficients from gimmick fights, won't DPE on SS builds scale much higher? Sorry for being a nub, but there's something whacked with Shiv being a viable end game raid spec.

The reason is the INSTANT poison proc... Basically, it makes your shiv do damage+poison damage on every hit. With vile poison, that leads to a pretty hefty amount.

According to Vulajin's spreadsheet, the above spec would give a breakdown of:

White 2224.12
Shiv 589.86
Rupture 427.81
Poisons 1617.53

That means about 31% of the damage comes from poison. The only thing I dont like about this spec is that it is partly an unintended side effect and not how Blizzard sees the class. Unintendly created unintendly fixed.

God, I hope I spelled unintendly right.

Acroanidd · 02/13/09, 7:56 AM

Just got to thinking something, if dual Fast combat, when one uses Killing spree would it be a DPS loss, and if not a loss, definitely not worth the one point spent on it.

Reasoning:

Over 2.5 seconds you hit 5 times meaning that each hand swings at .5 seconds. This is only slightly faster than dual fast. While Dual Fast with just SnD up my weapons were ~ .75s. The catch here is that these 5 attacks cannot proc sword spec procs or CP. Now if someone hits Heroism while you are using Killing Spree I could almost guarantee a loss of potential DPS.

I would possibly figure that putting that one point in Imp Poison to gain another 2% IP Proc might actually yield more damage.

cougarhawk · 02/13/09, 8:32 AM

There's been some discussion in this thread regarding the impact of the 3.0.9 changes once the (speculative) haste buff to Lightning Reflexes comes into play. To speculate further: keep in mind that the 10% haste added to SnD in 3.0.9 might mean the end of the LR change, i.e. the new SnD might fulfill the purpose of giving us the extra haste without gimping our ability to take mixed weapon specs.

On the subject of fast main hands, I personally made the 3.0.9 changes to the spreadsheet and fiddled with my (much lower level than most) gear to see if it's viable and I did indeed find that my DPS maxes out with a fast MH weapon in a shiv build. Specifically, the maximum DPS setup I could find as combat with the gear I currently have was:

18/51/2 Shiv Build
Glyphs: Rupture, SnD, Eviscerate
MH: Maexxna's Femur (Deadly Poison)
OH: Librarian's Paper Cutter (Instant Poison)
Rotation: 3s/5r/4e (Eviscerate)
Buffs: Just usual consumables, BoM, and GotW as that's all I'm sure to get most nights.

White DPS	898.58	37.08%
Shiv DPS	215.46	8.89%
Rupture DPS	214.71	8.86%
Eviscerate DPS	106.50	4.39%
Poison DPS	935.71	38.61%
Other DPS	0.00	0.00%
Total DPS	2423.19

The fight length was set at 300 seconds, and my other weapon options were Greed and another paper cutter. Incidentally, note that my poison DPS actually overtook my white damage which I've never seen before. This put me within 2% (~50 DPS) of my best Mutilate set-up (with 2 paper cutters as weapons). It seems to me, that even at 10-man gear levels, fast main hands for combat are currently viable whether we like it or not.

Originally Posted by Acroanidd

Over 2.5 seconds you hit 5 times meaning that each hand swings at .5 seconds. This is only slightly faster than dual fast. While Dual Fast with just SnD up my weapons were ~ .75s. The catch here is that these 5 attacks cannot proc sword spec procs or CP. Now if someone hits Heroism while you are using Killing Spree I could almost guarantee a loss of potential DPS.

I would possibly figure that putting that one point in Imp Poison to gain another 2% IP Proc might actually yield more damage.

I presume Killing Spree is considered a special and your analysis doesn't take into account the increased miss rate you would get from white attacks. In any case I tried it out with the setup I posted above and speccing out of KS to put the point into Improved Poisons (or even another point into Relentless Strikes) shows as a net DPS loss on the spreadsheet. I admit, however, that the situation might be different with higher hit rating and faster weapons.

Acroanidd · 02/13/09, 9:50 AM

Very true, i should have prefaced that a tad, my gear / gemming has been very very heavy on AP / Hit, to an extreme almost, I've got 529hit rating while raiding. So my miss rate is much smaller than most. I don't have access to my spreadsheet right now to really test it. Please excuse the fact that i completely forgot about putting it into relentless which might actually work out better. Im just thinking that point for point with dual fast that it probly isn't worth it.

Edit: you can completely ignore my posts.. it sounded reasonable until i reread the latest patch notes about them increasing the damage of killing spree

.

Xerop · 02/13/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Genre

I tried a few things with the spreadsheet. Assuming Shiv is properly implemented, Hailstorm with INSTANT POISON in OH and Webbed death with Wound poison in MH results in DPS that is 1% under CG - Deadly/WD - Wound. This is with 5 Points in CQC and in Sword spec (since we get rid of SS). One can only assume that if a ilevel 226 sword existed, it would beat it.

EDIT: Moving things around, same weapon setup, but with a spec 7/51/13 and a rotation of 4s/5r gives me DPS equal to CG/WD. Glyphs are rupture/AR/BF.

Erm, you seem to be comparing to a "wrong" combat spec and setup. In my opinion, you should compare vs CG( Wound) + WD( Wound); assuming 3.1 changes go live( 10% haste in LR+10% haste on slice).

Genre · 02/13/09, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Xerop

Erm, you seem to be comparing to a "wrong" combat spec and setup. In my opinion, you should compare vs CG( Wound) + WD( Wound); assuming 3.1 changes go live( 10% haste in LR+10% haste on slice).

At the moment, with my gear set up (who aint that bad I guess), deadly pulls ahead still. By thinkering around and wishlisting I eventually get to a point where wound/wound is better. But this is beside the point, the point is that with instant poison being so strong, it is possible to make a shiv build that surpasses regular combat spec/setup. But as I mentionned earlier, I am pretty sure this is unintended on Blizzard's part.

Akiho · 02/13/09, 2:43 PM

With only the current 3.0.9 SnD haste change added to the Spreadsheet, I am seeing a slight DPS gain from a Shiv build, even when placing an Omen of Ruin (instead of a KTR) in my main-hand (DP), and using my Avool's Sword of Jin as my OH, (IP).

One interesting thing to note is that if I change the Omen of Ruin to a 1.8 Dagger such as Anarchy or Sinister Revenge, I get a significant DPS bump due to increased white damage, but the increased speed of Webbed Death puts it right in between Anarchy and Sinister Revenge with Anarchy being slightly worse and SR being a bit better.

Calamity's Grasp also manages to sit in the same DPS range as Anarchy and Webbed Death. Sinister Revenge is better than Calamity's Grasp, however.

Best Glyph make-up: Rup/SnD/BF

Best Cycle: 4s/5r (I can't seem to make any sort of rotation work better on the SS for any build with Lethality, even though I often find myself Eviscerating with no loss in Rupture or SnD uptime).

With even more haste from Lightning Reflexes, this DPS gain should be even more dramatic due to poison procs, from what I am reading on the forums. With the mace spec change to add haste, Vulajin may want to look at adding the Femur from Maexxna to the MH section, as I think an fast MH mace would be very nice.

I think I will personally stick with a slow MH for now, so I don't have to enchant my Anarchy before the additional changes are actually implemented.

Zeyk_Shade · 02/13/09, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by MentalPROblem

Doesn't it mean that in the end, the best what we can get is:
51/13/07 Mutilate 4e/4r(CttC) WD/WD IP/IP Rup/SnD/Evi
with this specc: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I mean that Mutilate still outdoes any of the combat builds right now, right?

When I put this into my spreadsheet(I did update it with the proper SND/HFB changes), I lose 345.28dps.

Changed "Use Envenom instead of Eviscerate" to FALSE
same cycle as you mentioned
same glyphs as you mentioned
Undead Boss
No TotT

This nets 5228.34dps on the sheet vs. 5573.62dps with WD/SR and IP/DP using Envenom instead.

Is there something I am overlooking / doing incorrectly?