The Roguecraft Spreadsheet - Page 89

Danxor · 02/18/09, 4:35 PM

I am not sure if this is a bug or I don't understand how something is working...

By switching a glyph from NONE to Adrenaline Rush I get an increase in DPS even if I have a fight set to an amount of time that is less than the 4 minute refresh of AD after being glyphed.

Why does this glyph increase my DPS on a 30 second or 180second fight? Shouldn't it have 0 effect on fights of these lengths if it no longer affects Killing Spree?

Is AR or this Glyph being modeled incorrectly or am I missing something here?

skorpeo · 02/18/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

I'm not entirely clear what you're trying to say here, but it seems like you are getting higher DPS output when you specify "use Envenom" even though you don't have DP equipped. That is because the Envenom calculations do not automatically zero out just because you don't have DP equipped. Using the Envenom damage formula in the sheet, an Envenom performed at 0 DP stacks (even though it's technically impossible) will still deal substantial damage. Plus, you'll still get the Envenom buff bonus to your poison procs, even though you technically shouldn't. So yes, selecting "use Envenom" when you don't have DP equipped will still increase your DPS, but only because it is modeling an impossible situation.

I'm sorry, Maybe I should have been a lil more forth with my question. I figured as much about the sheet as you stated, but my real question is that the only way I can get 2 WD 2 IP with evis finisher to outdps WD/SR IP/DP with envenom (BiS gear) is by switching it from True to False. Are people switching this around when they come up with 2WD 2IP being better? Because Im getting the opposite.

• Vulajin · 02/18/09, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by skorpeo

I'm sorry, Maybe I should have been a lil more forth with my question. I figured as much about the sheet as you stated, but my real question is that the only way I can get 2 WD 2 IP with evis finisher to outdps WD/SR IP/DP with envenom (BiS gear) is by switching it from True to False. Are people switching this around when they come up with 2WD 2IP being better? Because Im getting the opposite.

I still have no idea what you are talking about, but I suspect that you are using the "use Envenom" setting in a stupid fashion. "Use Envenom" should ONLY be set to true if you are using an Envenom cycle. It should be set to false if you are using an Eviscerate cycle. When you switch "use Envenom" from true to false, you are switching from an Envenom cycle to an Eviscerate cycle by definition. Thus, an IP/IP setup must have "use Envenom" set to false, or the results make no sense.

Originally Posted by Danxor

By switching a glyph from NONE to Adrenaline Rush I get an increase in DPS even if I have a fight set to an amount of time that is less than the 4 minute refresh of AD after being glyphed.

Why does this glyph increase my DPS on a 30 second or 180second fight? Shouldn't it have 0 effect on fights of these lengths if it no longer affects Killing Spree?

Adrenaline Rush is not included in the time-based cooldown modeling. It is simply provided as an averaged effect. As a result, equipping the Glyph of Adrenaline Rush will always increase your DPS if you have taken Adrenaline Rush. I might consider changing this in the future, but it's far down the list of priorities.

Fishnat · 02/18/09, 5:31 PM

I have just a quick question about the sheet.

I was re-gemming some things today to continue meeting the requirements of the RED Meta. When I swapped an 8hit/8agi gem from my legs to a 16 expertise gem (which I am not expertise capped, nor below the Poison hit cap) and the sheet is showing a 100 dps loss. Would anyone be able to point out to me if it's something I'm doing wrong?

Thanks,
Fishnat

• Aldriana · 02/18/09, 5:34 PM

I suspect that change is causing you to no longer meet the metagem requirements - do you have a yellow gem elsewhere in your gear? That's the only circumstance I can think of where changing a single gem would get a DPS change on the order of 100 DPS.

• Vulajin · 02/18/09, 5:34 PM

Yes. You have forgotten that the RED requires not only one blue, but also one yellow.

Also, don't sign your posts.

skorpeo · 02/18/09, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

I still have no idea what you are talking about...

Sorry, Disregard what I had mentioned. I failed to realize you put a new sheet on 2/15. Everything is kosher.

Fishnat · 02/18/09, 5:44 PM

I just realized that I had incorrectly entered the Meta into the spreadsheet and seemingly missed it.

Thanks for the quick response.

RedCrossRobbery · 02/19/09, 2:38 AM

On the spreadsheet, when I put "Accuracy" on my OH weapon, and it's showing a higher possible DPS than putting a mongoose on my OH.

Is this a mistake in the spreadsheet, is it a variant of my rogue set up, is it because of OH hitting cycle, or is it because I'm just a noob and doesn't understand these things?

Kouklaki · 02/19/09, 3:01 AM

Just noticed something quirky playing with the sheet to find an ideal IP/IP spec (using LPC/Murder).

As I was taking points out of Ruthlessness (to throw in to Imp Eviscerate) my overall dps increased by around 7dps. When using Murder/Twilight Mist overall dps drops as expected. going to do some rudimentary dummy testing to see if the cycle holds without ruthlessness.

Rosethorn · 02/19/09, 4:37 AM

I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?

I just want to make sure that people are not missing the elephant in the room here; mutilate's damage is only mutilate's damage as given in the spreadsheet if the target is poisoned...

Kitherdra · 02/19/09, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kouklaki

Just noticed something quirky playing with the sheet to find an ideal IP/IP spec (using LPC/Murder).

As I was taking points out of Ruthlessness (to throw in to Imp Eviscerate) my overall dps increased by around 7dps. When using Murder/Twilight Mist overall dps drops as expected. going to do some rudimentary dummy testing to see if the cycle holds without ruthlessness.

It's been stated before in this thread that dropping ruthlessness would be the best bet since you're gonna be wanting to run a 5CP finisher cycle and keeping ruthlessness would only mean potentially wasting CPs.
Also, try swapping LPC to your offhand and Murder to the MH as you might find you gain a bit more dps.

Originally Posted by Rosethorn

I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?

I just want to make sure that people are not missing the elephant in the room here; mutilate's damage is only mutilate's damage as given in the spreadsheet if the target is poisoned...

As long as the hunter(s) are able to focus the boss the entire encounter they should be providing a poison almost 100% of the fight.

Grunge · 02/19/09, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kitherdra

It's been stated before in this thread that dropping ruthlessness would be the best bet since you're gonna be wanting to run a 5CP finisher cycle.
Also, try swapping LPC to your offhand and Murder to the MH.
After tweaking and testing things out on the sheet it I am seeing the LPC is now the second best OH in game for ip/ip(second only to webbed death). The best IP/IP weapon combos I could find(given my gear and stats at least) are as follows....

WD/WD
WD/LPC
Murder/LPC
LPC/LPC
and finally LPC/Omen of ruin

Interesting. I have very similar gear to you, but for me Murder/Murder beats Murder/LPC by 8 dps.
Similar results with BiS.

I wonder what's causing the discrepancy.

Originally Posted by RedCrossRobbery

On the spreadsheet, when I put "Accuracy" on my OH weapon, and it's showing a higher possible DPS than putting a mongoose on my OH.

Is this a mistake in the spreadsheet, is it a variant of my rogue set up, is it because of OH hitting cycle, or is it because I'm just a noob and doesn't understand these things?

Most likely you were below poison hit cap, which gives hit somewhat higher value until you are atpoison hit cap.
Mongoose also has diminished proc rate at 80, so it's not that great.

Kitherdra · 02/19/09, 5:14 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Interesting. I have very similar gear to you, but for me Murder/Murder beats Murder/LPC by 8 dps.
Similar results with BiS.

I wonder what's causing the discrepancy.
.

No discrepancy, I realized i had mucked up the list as well as left out 2 weapon set ups and edited my post almost immediately after clicking submit. You were just quick to quote >.<

the list should have looked like(for my gear at least)

wd/wd
wd/murder
wd/lpc(only slightly worse than wd/murder)
Murder/Murder
Murder/Lpc(only slightly worse than muder x2)
and
Lpc/Omen of ruin

Again, i removed the list from my original post cuz 1) i mucked it up, and 2) i felt since this thread is for the spreadsheet, people could just plug it themselves and see what they get as there are many factors that could change it.

cougarhawk · 02/19/09, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by Rosethorn

I don't know a huge amount about how hunters work, being the only class that I have not played, but is it safe to assume that they will constantly have a poison up on their target when calculating DPS for an IP/IP Eviscerate damage rotation?

I asked this exact question to the hunters in my guild (as we predominantly raid 10-mans and this is even more important in such situations). By way of anecdotal evidence, I'll quote the Q&A I had with a survival hunter that I feel does quite a bit of research on his class:

Q: Do you use any of your Stings as part of your rotation? My understanding is that Scorpid Sting makes its way into most PvE rotations.
A:
* For Sv: SrpSt is part of the armoury but there is a general preference order of Kill Shot, Explosive Shot, Aimed Shot, SrpSt. So it is only fired when the others aren't on CD.
* For BM: A must use to get the benefit of Steady Shot Glyph so they aim to have it up 100%.
* For MM: One of the shots renews the sting so most MM specs have pretty constant uptime on the sting if they are well-equipped and talented.

Q: If so are you able to keep the debuff from the sting up by yourself? If not, how often would you estimate it drops?
A:
* For Sv: As it is 4th on the list it does drop quite frequently. I do not try to refresh in advance and wait for it to drop for mana reasons. In a fight with lots of movement it will drop during the movement phase and only get refreshed 3 to 4.5 seconds into the damage phase. Not sure about total uptime, will keep an eye on it for the next few days, but when I have checked it has been about 50% to 75% depending on fight.
* For BM: When I was playing this I was managing about 90% uptime as there were only two cooldowns to watch whilst mashing steady shot.
* For MM: As I say above my understanding is that MM should be able to keep it up almost 100% (save for silly movement like Heigan)

Q: If the sting does drop, would you think 2 hunters in a raid is enough to keep a sting up on the mob 100% of the time? 3 hunters? Does it even make a difference?
A: Depends upon how 'in tune' their shot sequences are. If you had Sv and one other spec you should get almost 100% uptime. 2 SVs I would guess you would still have some downtime although I would doubt it would be more than 10%.

The conclusion I drew from this is that for a 25-man situation where you're more likely to have 2 hunters with you it's safe to assume that there will be a poison debuff on most bosses most of the time. Keep in mind that this is just one hunter's opinion, in fact another Survival hunter told me that he tries to keep 100% uptime on the sting. My advice: if you only raid with one hunter who happens to be Survival specced ask him if he keeps it up, otherwise it's probably safe to assume he's always poisoned.