Homie

Im currently using and 1.3 dps main hand and a 1.8 speed offhand with the cookie cutter 51/13/7 spec for Muti raid dps, but say if im farming stuff ( Normal mobs ) do i need to switch main and offhand for more muti damage? Or is the fast mainhand still prioritised?

 

Tinwhisker

Well, the MH/OH thing is really about increasing DPS over long periods (raid boss encounters). When you're out there killing mobs with health equal to your own, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference. Still, putting the slower in your MH while farming/questing would give you higher Mutilates but only rarely will that extra bit of damage make the mob die any faster.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Leto

I'm currently using a similar spec... except I sacrificed one point in cqc instead of ruthlessness.

Sacrificing in ruthlessness is theoretically less of a dps hit according to the spreadsheet (20 dps difference), but for me at least the sheet isn't showing a 100% snd uptime, so I don't trust its estimation of cycle impact.

I'd rather lose one crit than make my cycles more difficult to maintain, especially since you'll fluctuate as much as 10 or 20 crit on any given fight simply due to the RNG.


The case for vigor:

1) There are a decent number of fights where the extra energy pooling can help, and even though it may not be quantifiable as a guaranteed dps improvement, it sure makes my optimization job easier.

2) Although not drastically within the realm of discussion for this forum, vigor is a noticeable improvement outside of raids, while doing dailies, etc. I can kill mobs before cheap shot wears off with it, but have to wait for regen to mutilate after cs without it.


Making my raiding time easier and more effective is also why I have fleet footed. The 4% dmg buff from murder would be nice, but the run speed is very nice, especially while learning a fight.

Rogue at heart.

 

Aeviana

I've found that even with 2pc t7 bonus evis is much better than rupture; im routinely hitting 9-11k evis, while fully spec'd for rupture (7/51/13), it was barely hitting 650 a tick. This is without mangle. Is it worth speccing out of evis to rupture for when we do have a feral druid in?

 

◊ chalon

Mutilate hits with both weapons. It doesn't matter if you swap your MH and OH. Your Mutilates will still do the same overall damage.

Regarding Vigor, I really don't see any fight where I'm going to want to pool so much energy that the 10 Vigor will come into account. The only time energy capping comes into play for current fights is probably 4h, Loatheb (if you're chasing spores), and Malygos if Vortex puts you out of range. As for Vigor being justified by dailies, I really don't see it as necessary. I can kill most mobs with 2x Mutilate + the auto attacks between them, I don't see how 10 energy from Vigor will speed that up even more.

As for Fleet Footed, the main problem is that if you're running with an Unholy DK, it's worthless.

As for spec, I'm currently running 51/13/7 w/ 3/3 Master Poisoner 3/3 Ruthlessness, because we aren't reliably running Ret Pallies and/or Elemental Shamans at the moment.

 

Arakas

A bit inaccurate, Chalon.

The Offhand is hit with a penalty to damage, modified by any points in Dual Wield Spec. So having the heavy hitter in the main hand will produce *slightly* higher mutilates since the base damage is greater.

 

Murr

Doesn't the offhand actually get DWS bonus applied, or am I thinking of some bad math?

Edit: in reference to the post above mine, I thought Mutilate did full damage MH and OH, and OH had the DWS bonus applied to it.

Edit2: Now that I think about it, the clarification on Mutilate was that the OH does have the penalty (and DWS) applied, but the BONUS damage on the OH isn't reduced (but is amplified by DWS). Sorry for the confusion.

So yeah, I'd imagine slower in the MH would be a bit better in solo situations as you lose a bit more from offhand penalty using your slow dagger in the OH.

 

◊ chalon

Good point -- I had forgotten about the OH penalty + the OH bonus . So it would probably be slightly better while soloing to put the slower weapon in the MH.

 

saedo

Routinely isn't an average, seems like you've only noticed the big crits. Sounds like you're getting near 6K ruptures. Avg evis would need your crit rates and normal evis hits.

Also there's Rupture only needing 25 energy while Evis needs 35 energy.

 

Hallagenic

On the Mutilate Talent Build i have always seen this as being what would be the top dps for that potential spec.. am i wrong and am i missing something for it if i choose to switch to mutilate over combat. And if so what and why.. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...h=201603000000

A few key notes on the way i did this spec. Didnt go improved Vigor as it didnt increase total damage done it simply allows for the using of one more ability quicker in raids before it pans out to normal rotations.

2) went imp snd over dagger specilization because it allows for a much easier use of a 5r/5evis rotation wich as psted earlier in the thread i believe to be superior to using envenom atm.

 

lypheforce

I used to run with [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Shard of Contempt] until recently, when I replaced them with [Fezzik's Pocketwatch] and [Meteorite Whetstone]. And I seemed to notice a gain in DPS, but it's tough to tell because I upgraded a few gear items around the same time.

At a glance, the new trinkets certainly "look" like upgrades to me. As well, shadowpanther rates them higher than my old trinkets too ( and yes, I know shadowpanther is not a bible, but it is a helpful resource ). But, when I ran the roguecraft spreadsheet on my toon and adjusted the trinkets ... it showed a very decent drop in DPS for both.

Any thoughts on this?

 

◊ chalon

Ok, so where to start.

First, there's no reason to get Deadly Brew. The talent in its current incarnation does nothing for PvE.

Second, 5r/5evis is not superior to a 4+r/4+n/4+n cycle for Mutilate. In this cycle 2/2 SnD is wasted.

The "top DPS" spec is this, assuming someone else can cover the 3% crit buff: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If no one else can provide the 3% crit buff, then you should drop the 3/3 Turn the Tables for 3/3 Master Poisoner.

EDIT:

Based on those options, I'd say you probably made the correct choices, but it also depends how far off you are from Expertise Cap, and whether you're Combat or Mutilate. For Mutilate I really prefer proc-based trinkets generally, but proccing 40 armor pen rating is pretty worthless.

As for the spreadsheet, it may be that the trinkets aren't fully implemented yet (though I haven't checked, TBH).

 

lypheforce

Yea, I'm assuming it may be the spreadsheet.

I'm a combat swords rogue with 2/2 expertise in my tree and 114 expertise rating ( 114 with the new trinks ... 158 if I equip my shard ). One of the reasons I moved away from my [Shard of Contempt] was the fact that i was a bit over the cap with it equipped.

Thx for the comments - cheers!

 

• Vulajin

It's likely that the "on use" portion of the Pocketwatch didn't get properly plugged in. Also, the spreadsheet seems to universally overrate the armor penetration procs and effects on various trinkets, so I wouldn't be surprised that it thinks MotB is super great compared to the Whetstone. It also thinks Incisor Fragment is significantly better than the Whetstone. Armor penetration gems seem to come out properly in line with everything else (in other words, terrible).

 

Grimrage

I searched through for anything relating to trash DPS and found a post related to Combat saying that WP/WP would be better. My question is in regards to Mutilate, though. Hopefully a simple question. Would you see higher DPS on trash (or anything that dies quickly, including DPS in heroics) running double IP with Deadly Brew (to get the "poisoned" bonus for Mut) and using Evisc as your finisher or is it better to stick to IP/DP and use Envenom?

I know most people say not to worry about trash DPS but if I can provide a boost which helps us clear to bosses faster, it feels worth it to me. Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

Arakas

My personal experiences with mutilate lead me to believe that the best solo trash grinding build doesn't include using DP, IP, nor Deadly Brew. I would advise running with double WP and taking the two points that you may have put toward Deadly Brew and using them on direct damage talents instead. However, if you're in a group setting, then the rules change a bit.

1) Most of these mobs will be dead in less than 15-20 seconds.
1) Deadly poison may never stack enough to deliver much damage on fast dying mobs. Still viable for some elites, and certainly for bosses. If you're wanting to leverage CttC, then use deadly or choose Eviscerate to finish.
2) Instant Poison does a goodly deal of damage, but doesn't buy you the extra 50% to mutilate without Deadly Brew.
3) Deadly Brew is a fairly expensive talent with so many direct DPS talent options that low in the assassination tree.
4) Wound Poison delivers a respectable instant punch (and procs more often than instant) It also allows the bonus to mutilate. Plus, any healing mobs will be less effective.

Find what works for your build and group composition. They are equal factors in which to choose.

 

Grimrage

Thanks for the reply. The factors you pointed out are a big part of the reason I'm contemplating. The goal here is to raise my DPS on trash in Naxx and Heroics. Mobs just don't last very long but long enough that I feel I could improve. I feel like DP is not even close to potential but I don't have Deadly Brew currently so I need something to give me the 50% bonus on Mut. I thought about using WP/WP as well, also due to the increased proc rate and the poison debuff, but wasn't sure if that was a realistic option with the added 10% proc chance for IP.

I'm finally being giving a chance to raid on my Rogue with this expansion and I don't want to come across as performing below expectations. Thanks again for the reply.

 

◊ Shaker

Have we done any real analysis on how many mobs you need to hit for Fan of Knives to be useful? I think I can safely assert that at 3 it's always worth it, and that the real question is whether it's worth it to throw at 2 or not.

Base analysis - assuming that you are doing Fan of Knives instead of Sinister Strike

SS - 40 energy, MH WpnDmg + 180, 1 chance to proc effects and MH Poison, also yields one combo point.
FoK on 2 mobs - 50 Energy, 2xMH WpnDmg + 2x(OH WpmDmg * .75), 1 chance to proc MH poison and OH Poison, yields 0 combo points.

I think the simple answer is - yes, it's worth doing so, though we'll need to be careful in larger AE situations or 2 'big' mobs being tanked near eachother that we can maintain SnD. Which of course, brings up something like the situation of P1 Twin Eredar - if they were tanked close enough to eachother, is there an optimal rotation to use with FoK - do we just keep SnD up and FoK otherwise? SnD & Rupture then FoK?. I don't really have good answers for that, but honestly any real intense calculations should wait till the next PTR push, since they have stated they're changing the damage formula for FoK.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

koaschten

This might be nitpicking or a bad chosen example but for the sake of correctness the example chosen is not that good, because the 2nd twin will heal to 100% once the other twin dies. So its either wasted dps/energy or "i win on dps meter". Both is not good.

But i agree on the point that as a rule of thumb 3 or more mobs are worth throwing knives.

 

stedfunk

Which food consumable are you mutilate rogues using? the 30 crit or 40 agility food?

 

◊ chalon

That question is pretty simple to answer based on the EP weights on the first page of this thread.

[Mega Mammoth Meal] and [Blackened Dragonfin] are the two best food options at the moment, and roughly interchangeable.

 

Yozshurah

As a combat rogue using Greed as a main hand (143 dps, 2.6 speed fist), which one would be a better offhand:
Librarian's Paper Cutter (130 dps, 1.3 speed dagger)
or
Grasscutter (143 dps, 1.6 speed sword)?

considering I have both sword spec and CQC.

I'm leaning towards the dagger, just wanting to confirm.

Thanks in advance.

 

Venomous

Im in the EXACT same predicament as you Yoz. Just got Greed then, and my options for dagger is [Lightblade Rivener] atm - Im happy to farm Librarian's but Spreadsheeting it, Lightblade Rivener comes out on top.

My question to you guys is - out of Naxx - wld it be better to stick CQC with Greed/Lightblade Rivener or spec Swords and go [Reaper of Dark Souls]/[Grasscutter]

Thanks,
G4L

 

dabadguy

Resist and missing are now the same thing. The only time that they would differ would be in the case of partial resists, but I don't honestly know if poisons can be partially resisted. If you look at any pvp situation where you CloS and have a spell cast at you, it's now logged as "Miss" instead of "Resist." I would have to assume that poisons can be partially resisted since they work off spell mechanics and the mechanics were just changed so that previously binary spells are now subject to partial resists. I would want some empirical data before making an assumption either way.

Chance for poisons to hit (or crit)= (1-(.17-(PoisonHit%))
Chance for poisons to miss = (.17-(PoisonHit%)

Where PoisonHit% is defined as the summation of all +Hit buffs/debuffs/gear etc in my previous post.


@Everyone asking "...is "RandomMHWep/RandomOHWep better with X Spec or RandomMHWep/OtherRandomOHWep better with Y spec?"

Here's your steps to success:

1) Find a spreadsheet.
2) Plug in current wep/gear/spec with first combo.
3) Look at DPS.
4) Change wep/gear/spec for second combo.
5) Look at Dps.
6) Go with whatever DPS is higher.

 

Kumar

Use the spreadsheets and consider going Fist/Sword with Fang of Truth or Grasscutter.