Lightshadow

The pocket guide is out of date since it was created before the change to Lightning Reflexes. What you have linked as the shadowpanther one looks correct.

 

PessimiStick

I don't think they changed Explosive Shot for HAT in particular, they seem to have jacked Explosive Shot in general. I know our SV Hunter was complaining yesterday that ES wasn't proccing Thrill of the Hunt (mana return on crit) or Go for the Throat (pet focus on crit), so I imagine that it's not counting the damage as a real spell/ability for some reason, which would also make it not proc HAT.

 

Rossy87

From reading around it seems that mutilate is the better option against "murderable" mobs, while combat is more viable against "non-murderable" targets.

Seeing as the majority of bosses in Ulduar are affected by murder (giants, humanoids, dragonkin), surely mutilate would be the better option?

Why then does it seem that most of the decent rogues I have looked at are using combat spec? Am I missing something?

 

FoKPEW

I was wondering the same. Thank you for the clarification on that bud!

 

Lightshadow

Possible reasons:
1. Unless you have an arms warrior, there should always be at least 1 combat rogue in the raid for the savage combat debuff.
2. I think your rule for which is "best" is far too simplistic -- murder isn't the only difference between the specs. In particular, combat has higher burst damage and looking at the ulduar fight mechanics a number of them reward that.
3. Experience and personal preference matter.
4. Glyphs matter, the new ones are still hard to come by, and that hurts mutilate much more than it hurts combat.
4. You might be looking at the wrong rogues, or they might well be logged out in a spec they're using to test (or farm) rather than their raid spec.

 

Visciv

Aldriana, it's been pointed out elsewhere that according to spreadsheets Armor Pen is now the highest rated stat for Rogues. I know alot of us are still use to AGI/AP being the best in most situations and I was curious if you still feel AGI/AP is better or were simply unaware of the new waiting on Armor Pen?

Personally I'm hesitant to regem for Pen due to Poisons and Bleeds not seeing any affect from it, unlike say AP.

Edit: I also just read somewhere that Armor Pen is bugged on live so I guess at least for the moment it doesn't matter too much if it is the best gem to choose.

 

bankyz

Very helpful thank you, you saved an hour+ sifting through piles of threads for pertanant answers. I've got a couple questions my apologies in advance if they're noobish.

Grim Troll I read it's BIS now? Assuming no T8 is Grim now better than Greatness/Mirror/Fotf? What about 2/5 and 4/5 T8?

For expertise what is the ballpark number for combat you have too much expertise? Not looking for exact numbers just roughly, I have 29 expertise (recluse ect) as combat I get the feeling I should ditch some expertise for other items even though those items are high ranked.

 

Visciv

1. Grim Toll is generally second best in slot despite your hit right behind DMF: Greatness (this is assuming Armor Pen is working properly).

2. The expertise cap is 26. The extra 3 you have are dead unless you plan on sitting in front of the mob (which is about as poor a choice as milk).

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

Is still fairly accurate in all things rogue and probably could give you a much better idea of the things you are looking for than in this thread.

 

Ozzmar

Visciv is right, but like with all stats, there's no magic number. I am not Expertise capped, but my spreadsheet still has AP ever so slightly higher than Expertise for me. Use a spreadsheet.

And, let's keep this thread focused on the changes introduced in 3.1. There are plenty of other threads for gearing, gemming, talent, and stat questions.

 

Renzho

Hi all,

this is my very first post but I am a regular reader of your forum since a few months ago. Firstable, I would like to thanks a lot to all those contributors to these great debates for the hard work and long time dedicated to the benefit of rogue's community.

Being a long term swords fan and taking in count new changes for combat tree and (so far) known new swords at 3.1: [] and [] (I don't know yet the nature of binding for these items but in case they have a decent % drop rate and bop nature )

is it reasonable to think combat swords is a viable again?

Thanks again you all for an excellent work.

 

Murr

Hard to say until we see all hardmode loot. It's "viable" but there's a 188 dps fist off hardmode Flame Leviathan. It's safe to assume we'll probably see another high ilvl MH Fist or Sword from another hardmode boss, and unless it's *both* there will end up being a BiS option between Fist/dagger and Sword/sword.

 

PsilocinEI

Though I generally disagree with HAT in it's entirety... if it's putting up the numbers then I am willing to test it as my duel spec for purely scientific curiosity.. However, my question is: realizing that the Slow MH is for the poison procs and the 8/20/43 spec uses 5/5 CQC, is it better to use a slow sword in MH or a fast dagger. Basically my only hard hitting MH is Silent Crusader.. otherwise I'm looking at a Murder/WD combo. Also, did they change the fact that HAT procs from your own critical strikes? I tested on the dummy and my CP generation was way slower than it was way back when I tested it once before. I also didn't hear that nice sound effect it makes, ever.

 

nightwatch

In a Mutilate Build 51/13/7, is it recommended to move 1 point from Precision to Imp. S'n'D to cover the loss of the SnD Glyph? And if so, what's the new poison hit cap?

 

Smapdor

I wouldn't think so. Precision is far more useful, and you shouldn't be having too much trouble keeping your SnD up, even unglyphed.

 

Joigahdenn

Edit: Please delete post.

 

paramourn

1 point in Imp SnD means your new poison cap is right around 347 but if you have imp ff or misery you should be good at your old cap. I'm at 367 with 2/2 imp snd and dont miss except for a white attack every once in awhile. I disagree with smapdor....somewhat.....if your hit is above 340'ish the imp snd is WELL worth it....I don't know how many times thats saved my rotations having imp snd. If you lose your rotation due to too many stacks falling off quickly, it can significantly drop your deeps more than say the 32.9 hit you would have had.

 

paramourn

I have a quick question regarding the master poisoner bug currently present in 3.1. Is the crit buff ONLY effecting rogues, or is this crit buff raid wide? The research I've found has given me mixed signals

 

kddude

Okay, I've three questions today:

1) In going combat, I noticed my expertise rise to extreme levels (via. Weapon Expertise). I extremely
doubt that 38 expertise points is optimal. I'm not gemming, enchanting, or gearing for expertise.
Should I skip this talent in favor of the other utility ones? Should I just refain from going
combat? I do have CG and WD.

2) About 15/51/5 and 18/51/2: The conventional 18/51/2 spec includes Vile Poisons in favor of dropping
three points in Relentless Strikes. However, has there been any speculation of putting the three points
into Improved Evis instead of Vile Poisons, or is that complete nonsense because of the increased
poison damage being vastly greater than that of eviscerate?

3) I have the HFB glyph, which is -a little bit- rare right now. Is that basically pointing me to go
mutilate if we already have a combat rogue in the raid providing the debuff? I've got both on dual
spec right now, just wondering if due to my extraneous ammount of expertise in combat it's a good choice at all.

 

Danzir

I went combat last night and didn't notice a difference in the display. Mine still said "19". As it did before, but I vaguley remember reading something about expertise getting a new value definition. Gosh, I just can't remember. But are you saying that when you go combat - 15/51/5 (etc..), you are showing a 38 expertise rating? I see your mut gear and its loaded with expertise, are you wearing that gear as combat? If so, that makes sense as you get "10" points from combat talents, and it appears - given your mut view, that you are sitting at 28. So, 28 + 10 = 38 :-)

 

kddude

Yeah, I understand that, I just didn't know how to word my question. What I was trying to ask is, is it still okay to go combat with all those wasted stats? Seems like I'm wasting the talent points/not using my gear to its full potential by doing that.

 

Xaoc

It will add the 1/2/3% crit chance for the entire raid. The debuff is the same as the Ele Sham Totem of Wrath and Paladin Heart of the Crusader.

 

luke_twigger

Just buy 2 utility/filler talents instead of Weapon Expertise, so you can use the same gear for both your dual specs. Or if you have spare gear in the bank, build a set for mutilate and a set for combat.

 

xvvx01

I take the 2 pts out of the expertise talent and put it into the Throwing Specialization talent. Helpful on Iron Council and Razor Scale.

 

◊ songster

It depends what gear you have. If you have equivalent ilvl gear with less expertise on, it may well be helpful to swap that in instead. If the only gear you have is all high on expertise, then you may as well free up the WEx talent points and put them in something else. Consult your local spreadsheet to check which of the gear pieces you have are best for you.

Note that this forum does not know what gear you have in the bank and cannot optimise your equipment for you.

 

Smapdor

But with a mutilate build CttC should be refreshing your SnD well before it runs out, unless you're referring to cases where you're out of range/incapacitated. Is there something I'm missing?