Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 102

Missdeanna · 01/29/09, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

As other have said, you don't need that much Hit. And like I said, you might want to redo some of that research, because the caps for Hit and Expertise are -- and this is a phrase people heard a lot in the end of Burning Crusade -- "not magic numbers" that you must have to deal good damage; they are guidelines for where those stats become less effective/valuable relative to other stats.

One thing you could do is look at some of the Armory profiles of rogues here who are considered to know their shit -- Aldriana, Zulajin, Latito, Chalon, etc. -- and see what they are doing for gems and enchants. (And I'm not placing myself among them in terms of contributions to these forums, by any means, but if they all spec Mutilate and you want an example of how to gem for Combat, you can take a look at my Armory profile. EDIT: Although, I'm a Jewelcrafter, so I get away with socketing for all my bonuses in ways that most rogues won't.) See what stats they have, compare them to what you have, what you think you should have after doing more research, and see if you can figure out why they do it that way.

Personally, I would change some of your gems and enchants, try to run a more practical cycle like 4s/5r/5e, and see what happens. That might just do it for you -- good luck!

I too am a JC so this should be a bit easier for me than most other rogues, I would guess. I noticed you're using Hailstorm instead of a dagger. I too have an enchanted Hailstorm and I'm wondering if your spec would be better to emulate than mine, which utilizes Webbed Death and zero points in Sword Spec.

As four of my points are essentially throwaway points to get me down to the 51 point talent, I don't feel like it would be much trouble to try your spec out. Any opinions?

Valustria · 01/29/09, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Missdeanna

I too am a JC so this should be a bit easier for me than most other rogues, I would guess. I noticed you're using Hailstorm instead of a dagger. I too have an enchanted Hailstorm and I'm wondering if your spec would be better to emulate than mine, which utilizes Webbed Death and zero points in Sword Spec.

As four of my points are essentially throwaway points to get me down to the 51 point talent, I don't feel like it would be much trouble to try your spec out. Any opinions?

To be honest, that's going to depend entirely on what a spreadsheet tells you AND what you prefer for whatever else you do in game. Zulajin's spreadsheet puts [Calamity's Grasp]/[Hailstorm] with 4/5 Sword Spec. ahead of [Calamity's Grasp]/[Webbed Death] for me, but your mileage may vary based on other factors. I do miss having a shorter cooldown on Sprint and Evasion, along with Unfair Advantage when I'm solo farming, though... so, see what the spreadsheets say for you and decide whether or not you want to make that compromise.

Missdeanna · 01/29/09, 2:47 PM

I guess another question would be this: our spriest is about 50/50 on raid attendance and our boomkin is not imp ff specced. That said, should I make sure I'm always at 315 so I'm fine for when we DON'T have those buffs?

Leto · 01/29/09, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Missdeanna

I guess another question would be this: our spriest is about 50/50 on raid attendance and our boomkin is not imp ff specced. That said, should I make sure I'm always at 315 so I'm fine for when we DON'T have those buffs?

In this case I would either suggest that the boomkin go imp ff since he is a more reliable raider, or carry two sets of gear, one with 315 hit and one with 237. I wouldn't gem for 315 all the time, since when you *do* have misery, the opportunity cost would be higher, and I'd imagine you'll have misery when you need the dps to count most.

Valustria · 01/29/09, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Missdeanna

I guess another question would be this: our spriest is about 50/50 on raid attendance and our boomkin is not imp ff specced. That said, should I make sure I'm always at 315 so I'm fine for when we DON'T have those buffs?

Nah. Someone did the math once, and I'm sure it's around here somewhere, but here's the short version: you are better off assuming you have the buffs and gemming for Agility, even if you don't get them, than if you assume you won't have them and gem/enchant for all that Hit Rating.

• Andeh · 01/29/09, 4:40 PM

On the topic of Mutilate vs. Combat, I'm having a hard time deciding what is better for working on 10m Sarth+3. Raid composition would be melee focused, with a Prot Warrior tanking the drakes (so wouldn't need to EA). I've played around with the Roguecraft spreadsheet, turning the combat duration down to 40 seconds, since in terms of DPS comparison we're mostly interested in how fast you can burn Shadron. Assuming my current gear, I'm showing a 550ish DPS difference between Mutilate (with Murder) and Combat. If you figure that only 4 other DPS (plus the tank) are going to benefit from Savage Combat, it seems like the RDPS difference isn't enough to overcome Mutilate's lead. On the other hand, there are certain intangible benefits to ignoring the relatively minor lead of Mutilate, and going Combat, such as Endurance and Throwing Spec.

So for those of you who've done the 10 man version of Sarth+3, how did you make your decision on spec for this encounter, and what did you chose?

chalon · 01/29/09, 4:48 PM

I went Mutilate when we did Sarth+3 in the physical DPS group. It was like, 2 Hunters, myself, Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman and Moonkin (jumped into caster to spot heal as well) as the DPS.

I'd say in general for the 10 man you're better off sticking with Mutilate.

Feist-Mok · 01/29/09, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Andeh

So for those of you who've done the 10 man version of Sarth+3, how did you make your decision on spec for this encounter, and what did you chose?

I went combat for it, I found the on-demand burst and AE of Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, and Killing Spree to be superior for the nature of the fight - this was however, before 3.0.8 (haven't done 10 man 3D since), which would likely tip the scales somewhat in Mut's favor.

vatista · 01/29/09, 6:36 PM

Is there a noob Forum at all?

Im a Rogue, i have just specced PVP Mutilate but my gear is more PVE. (i think i would like to just concentrate PVE as i have always been a PVP guy) And i have looked through the forums and have to admit that i find it quite hard to follow along with what most of you WOW Geniusus are saying! Kudos to you for being so smart in this field i wish i had half your knowledged on the matter.

I want to Raid and pull out some Good DPS. a few questions i have and have yet to be able to find an actual answer to are as follows:

1) What are best Mods for PVE/PVP i have only been back to playing LK after a break and have picked up Recount, DBM and Proximo. As a Rogue should i have any others?

2) as Mutilate the rotation im gathering i should use from reading the Forums is 3cp SnD 5cp Rup Rinse repeat? and throw in the odd Envenom.. did i read this correct?

3) Hit Cap, this is going to sound very noob but please understand that i am. i have 197 Hit atm. what should i aim for for PVE? and for PVP what Hit is sufficient?

I read the terms on posting here and understand you dont want to see my Armoury to help in that way and that is fair enough, for any random passer byer who does want to see my Rogues name is MASE in Jubie'thos.

If my questions can be answered elsewhere please just give me the link and il read myself but i must admit i was having trouble finding the answers i wanted.

thanks

xmod2 · 01/29/09, 6:47 PM

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

The link dropped a bit down the page, but you should check out this thread first.

For add ons, having Rogue Power Bars or some mod to track the duration of your SnD, Rupture and Hunger for Blood is pretty much essential to maximize your dps.

For your rotation, envenom refreshes SnD due to Cut to the Chase. Once you start up your SnD you should never need to reapply it and you use Envenom to keep SnD up instead. Again, read that thread and it should give you everything you need to know for raiding.

You may also want to check out How To Use Search

vatista · 01/29/09, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by xmod2

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

The link dropped a bit down the page, but you should check out this thread first.

For add ons, having Rogue Power Bars or some mod to track the duration of your SnD, Rupture and Hunger for Blood is pretty much essential to maximize your dps.

For your rotation, envenom refreshes SnD due to Cut to the Chase. Once you start up your SnD you should never need to reapply it and you use Envenom to keep SnD up instead. Again, read that thread and it should give you everything you need to know for raiding.

You may also want to check out How To Use Search

Thanks for this, much appreciated.

Jinro · 01/29/09, 10:13 PM

After some time with my calculator, itemrankings and thinktanking I found myself facing a problem I really haven't seen being approached here (in detail).

some introductory information about my character:

Troll Mutilation Rogue
Enchanting/Mining as Tradeskills

With the gear-build I came up with, I could reach both the expertise and hitcap (@hit: 315 and 237 are both reachable without specific gems) and still look at ~3400AP and ~35%crit.

Problem: I would exchange [Valorous Bonescythe Gauntlets] with [Frosted Adroit Handguards], leaving me with only 3/5 T7.5 (Head, Legs, Shoulders) and therefore I'd miss out on the 4/5 Setbonus.

As a Mutilate Rogue, the only CP move I use is Mutilate which atm costs me, with 4/5, 57 Energy instead of 60.
I really have no idea how to value this. The most basic thing I came up with is that for every 20 Mutilates i can do 1 additional Mutilate, which translates to (with my current gear) ~3-5k yellow damage, possible 1k IP hit, possible DP hit and 2-3 Combo Points. Now I'd have to evaluate this with undodgable envenom/rupture and not poison resistances.

After the mandatory "run it through the spreadsheet" I saw that with my capped expertise/hit 3/5 gear I'd loose about ~180DPS from my normal 4/5 setup.

Now that should quit any pro 3/5 gear talk, but as I haven't found any detailed information about the 4/5 bonus I'm curious if anyone might argue that the spreadsheet is missing something here.

thanks!

songster · 01/30/09, 4:11 AM

You're thinking about it the wrong way.

With 5/5 relentless strikes, your Ruptures are free, and your Envenoms cost 10 energy. That means you spend almost your energy income on Mutilates. A 5% reduction in Mutilate cost is therefore almost 5% boost in your yellow damage, straight up. Where you're falling down is in only considering the boost to the Mutilate damage, and not the extra Envenom / Rupture damage you get from having the extra combo points.

Druss · 01/30/09, 6:15 AM

I'm looking for some thoughts on weapon (and poison) choices given some assumptions about current mutilate and FoK's mechanics. I have a set of fast/fast weapons (Omen1.5/LPC1.3) and a set of slow weapons (Fleshshaper1.8/DoB1.8).

For trash pulls I assume that the vast majority of my damage is going to come from FoK and that pulls will generally be dead fast. Based on this my thinking is that high base weapon damage in both MH and OH is imperative assuming FoK looks to both MH and OH and does 150% weapon damage. I also assume there is no point using deadly poison as it wont have time to do its damage and, assuming FoK always procs the poison applied to MH and OH (is this the case or does it look to % chance to apply), double instant is the way to go. Focused attacks and so forth should be largely irrelevant as the huge majority of damage will be from FoK.

Conclusion for trash: use slow/slow weapons with IP/IP and spam FoK. I've also assumed blade flurry works with FoK though I haven't really looked into it.

For bosses and pulls involving only a few high HP targets that take a while my assumption is that my fastest weapon (LPC) should be in the MH with IP on it and second fastest (Omen) should be in the OH with DP on it to maximise mutilate DPS with FAttacks and poisons.

So - points of query/clarification are:

(1) for FoK is slow/slow the way to go for max DPS?
(2) does FoK always apply the poisons from both weapons?
(3) does blade flurry work with FoK?
(4) does FoK proc focused attacks?
(5) is fastest MH with IP and second fastest OH with DP the way to go now the poison bug has been fixed?

With my build I have been doing pretty obscene damage on trash but i'm looking to maximise it by clarifying some of these points. I'm spec'd 43/21/7 for decent mutilate DPS (though behind HfB builds on single targets) and outrageous damage on trash or two+ targets (Overkill with 120 energy (vigor and glyph) out of stealth opening with cold blood + blade flurry + FoK spam).

lolwat123 · 01/30/09, 6:42 AM

Im sure this was here billion times but i gotta ask again...

Gemming.

Mutilate=AP
but what about combat? agi or ap? or does it even matter? thanks