Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 103

Valustria · 01/30/09, 6:53 AM

If I'm not mistaken, I see the effect of Savage Combat appear as a debuff on any mob I have poisoned. If the Master Poisoner talent works the same way, and if you are providing that benefit to your raid, you might consider Wound Poison on at least one of your trash daggers, because it has a good chance to be applied, does pretty decent damage, and will grant people 3% more crit chance against every mob hit by it. That said, since Envenom isn't as important to be using on trash, you might consider double Wound, or even Wound and Anesthetic for when that can be useful. I mean, the goal is for the raid to clear trash as quickly and effectively as possible... not for you as an individual to put out the best possible DPS. If you give up some of your own DPS to provide useful utility, it might be worth it. Just an idea...

Also, I remember reading that Blade Flurry does work with FoK, but my understanding is that it will only trigger on the mobs close enough to be hit by a normal melee attack. [On that note, but not totally related: I've got a cycle for trash that works very well for me, as Combat. TotT to the tank, FoK, BF, KS, FoK, FoK... shit is dead. When I have my cooldowns, even without popping Adrenaline Rush, I can put out even more AoE DPS than most casters I have run with.]

Lastly, why spec for trash? I mean, as nice as it is to blast through trash a bit faster, are you ever really chewing class on the trash pulls leading up to a boss? Spec to kill the bosses... inflating your numbers on trash is silly if it means doing less on the boss that actually drops loot.

songster · 01/30/09, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Druss

So - points of query/clarification are:

(1) for FoK is slow/slow the way to go for max DPS?
(2) does FoK always apply the poisons from both weapons?
(3) does blade flurry work with FoK?
(4) does FoK proc focused attacks?
(5) is fastest MH with IP and second fastest OH with DP the way to go now the poison bug has been fixed?

With my build I have been doing pretty obscene damage on trash but i'm looking to maximise it by clarifying some of these points. I'm spec'd 43/21/7 for decent mutilate DPS (though behind HfB builds on single targets) and outrageous damage on trash or two+ targets (Overkill with 120 energy (vigor and glyph) out of stealth opening with cold blood + blade flurry + FoK spam).

(1) Yes
(2) "Always" in the sense that both weapons have the normal % chance to proc on each target, yes. It's not a guaranteed proc (like Shiv is)
(3) Yes, but apparently only for the main hand hit, not both
(4) Yes, but apparently only for main hand crits, not both
(5) Yes

However, you really shouldn't spec for improved trash DPS at the moment. While trash DPS is not as irrelevant as some say, it is still not worth optimising at the expense of boss DPS. Stick with the standard 51/13/7 spec until dual spec comes in. The extra trash DPS you get from blade flurry in no way compensates for the boss damage you lose with that build.

Note, when dual spec does come in, the maximum AoE build will be something remarkably stupid like this 37/34/0 build, glyphed for Vigor, Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush. Basically, you want to maximise energy regen and grab every cooldown you can, while putting the (many) filler points firstly into survivability. Anything that buffs combo moves or finishers will be wasted as this is a FoK spam build. About the only semi-normal talents worth taking in an AoE build are Imp S'n'D and Ruthlessness, since you can then keep up S'n'D mainly from Ruthlessness procs, saving as much energy as possible for FoK. If you have more than about 8 AoE classes in the raid, you'll want to drop Vitality and AR to get Master Poisoner and thus give +3% crit on all targets.

Needless to say, I wouldn't advocate trying single target DPS with that build (!), but if you don't care about PvP you may as well use it as a swap build for trash once dual spec comes in, depending how easy it is to swap spec.

Gilin · 01/30/09, 1:16 PM

Follow up FoK Question:
Exactly, HOW does it work with Blade Flurry? If only the main hand hit from FoK is applied to the flurry target (as opposed to the MH and OH hits), does that mean only 1 of my main-hand hits if I FoK 50 targets? Is it the biggest MH hit of all the FoKed targets? A random one? Do we know how that "decision" is made?

I'm assuming this is the way it is (only 1 hit is blade flurried to the secondary target) otherwise the target that got the BF'd damage from FoK would get NUKED if your FoK hit a lot of targets.

songster · 01/30/09, 1:23 PM

My understanding is as follows:

1) ALL mainhand FoK hits proc a Blade Flurry hit
2) Blade flurry hits can only hit a target within melee range (as compared to the 8yd range of FoK)

This does mean that if there is only one target in melee range of you, it will get pretty much gibbed (and/or you'll pull aggro), however that is a fairly unlikely scenario. It is much more likely that the majority of mobs in the pull will be within melee range of you, since they tend to clump up on the tank unless they're casters.

Gilin · 01/30/09, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by songster

My understanding is as follows:

1) ALL mainhand FoK hits proc a Blade Flurry hit
2) Blade flurry hits can only hit a target within melee range (as compared to the 8yd range of FoK)

This does mean that if there is only one target in melee range of you, it will get pretty much gibbed (and/or you'll pull aggro), however that is a fairly unlikely scenario. It is much more likely that the majority of mobs in the pull will be within melee range of you, since they tend to clump up on the tank unless they're casters.

I'm going to do some testing and post the results if no one beats me to it.

xmod2 · 01/30/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by songster

This does mean that if there is only one target in melee range of you, it will get pretty much gibbed (and/or you'll pull aggro), however that is a fairly unlikely scenario. It is much more likely that the majority of mobs in the pull will be within melee range of you, since they tend to clump up on the tank unless they're casters.

Is this true? Will all of the BF procs hit one target, or will they be "wasted" to invalid targets?

It would make for an interesting tactic. Keep up all of Noth's trash, have add tank pull them out of melee range then BF FoK and proc all of the MH hits to the boss. Would probably work on any fight with a lot of trash adds if you could coordinate it with the tanks.

drumbum · 01/30/09, 2:28 PM

I tested this a couple weeks ago, and yes, songster is exactly correct.

However, I'd like to point out that Blade Flurry does not pick a random target in melee range. It has some sort of method for determining which target to transfer hits to if there are more than one target in melee range. I'm not sure what exactly it uses to make the decision (perhaps closest or something of that nature).

As such, even if there are many targets in your melee range when you use it, every hit duplicated by Blade Flurry will hit the same target, except for one (because the FoK hit that landed on that target must be transferred to another mob). So, still, the result of using Blade Flurry is that it will always gimp one target, not spread them out randomly.

Gilin · 01/30/09, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by xmod2

Is this true? Will all of the BF procs hit one target, or will they be "wasted" to invalid targets?

It would make for an interesting tactic. Keep up all of Noth's trash, have add tank pull them out of melee range then BF FoK and proc all of the MH hits to the boss. Would probably work on any fight with a lot of trash adds if you could coordinate it with the tanks.

Sadly, there is no way to guarantee that the target selected by Blade Flurry would be the boss.

• Aldriana · 01/30/09, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gilin

Sadly, there is no way to guarantee that the target selected by Blade Flurry would be the boss.

Unless, as he suggests, it's the only target in melee range. The bigger problem is how you manage to keep the boss in melee range and all the adds between 5 and 8 yards away - positioning at that level of detail is a bit tricky. And to be perfectly frank, it's not clear how much this would help your single-target DPS anyway - it's probably better than using normal cycles, but not necessarily by a huge margin. I think this gets filed in the category of "good ideas that aren't worth the effort".

Neto- · 01/30/09, 4:10 PM

So, this is some rather old discussion, but now that the Mutilate double proc OH bug has been fixed, does that make IP/IP even better in comparison to IP/DP?

I gave it a try this week, dropping Murder for 2/3 Imp Eviscerate (obviously, it's not the optimal spec except for Naxx), but the difference is notable on short fight duration bosses such as Faerlina, due to Bloodlust uptime and better haste scaling of running double IP.

buttah · 01/30/09, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by vandooche

simply pretty knew to playing a rogue, my rogue's name is The World of Warcraft Armory

I am trying to substain some very good dps, I am just not sure what the problem is at the moment. I have my rotation down very well, I am just wondering if I should be using diff weapons, gem'n different. Basically for a mut rogue I am trying to find out the hit/crit/ap I need to be pushing out some very good dps. I know most of you here are already good, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks

D

Your gems and enchants are fine, all though it's kinda pointless to swap back and forth between agi and ap gems. You should probably look into gaining some expertise though.

You should probably look into getting another paper cutter and just duel wield two of them until you can get a webbed death or a murder. You may also be able to simple put your MH in your oh slot and increase your dps, depending on the answer to my question.

What is the deal with people doing fast OH slow MH now? What is the change to make that more appealing? With that idea would you still put Instant on the MH and Deadly on the OH?

saedo · 01/30/09, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by buttah

What is the deal with people doing fast OH slow MH now? What is the change to make that more appealing? With that idea would you still put Instant on the MH and Deadly on the OH?

If they're going fast OH slow MH they're doing it wrong. Raid PvE anyways, MH the faster of the daggers for more poison procs off finishers. Maybe it's pvp/grinding if you're just looking at armory. But either way, you put instant on the faster of your daggers, deadly on the slower one.

cabby1 · 01/30/09, 11:37 PM

Also depending of the speed of your daggers, you would put IP in your offhand if it was 1.4, or deadly if it was greater than that.

I see many mut specced rogues out there - some with fast/fast and some with slow/fast. Most of them though are slow/fast.

You also really need to work on your expertise rating - 4 is quite low. 19 is a good number to start to aim for, but you just need to see about swapping out gear until you find the balance that you need to succeed. As with BC - +hit is what needed to be worked upon, but balancing between +hit, expertise, AP and crit is the challenge for rogues out there

buttah · 01/31/09, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by saedo

If they're going fast OH slow MH they're doing it wrong. Raid PvE anyways, MH the faster of the daggers for more poison procs off finishers. Maybe it's pvp/grinding if you're just looking at armory. But either way, you put instant on the faster of your daggers, deadly on the slower one.

I said that backwards. Fast MH and slow OH, such as Chalon who has a paper cutter in his main and a SR in his OH.

saedo · 01/31/09, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by cabby1

Also depending of the speed of your daggers, you would put IP in your offhand if it was 1.4, or deadly if it was greater than that.

No. If your offhand was 1.4 spd. Your MH should be 1.3-1.4 speed then. By that mechanic, IP goes to your main hand.

By one mechanic, you want to IP the faster of the daggers.
By another mechanic, you want to main hand the faster of the daggers.

Originally Posted by buttah

I said that backwards. Fast MH and slow OH, such as Chalon who has a paper cutter in his main and a SR in his OH.

Finishers can proc MH poisons. So main handing the faster dagger with IP gives the best amount of procs. That additional poison dps more than offsets the slightly lower mutilate damage.