Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 105

chalon · 02/03/09, 1:55 AM

I don't know who came up with those EP values for Grim Toll. But those 3 trinkets you listed are the best. Greatness is the top one, and then after that Fury and Mirror are close. Grim Toll is like 4th or 5th best.

Zujamar · 02/03/09, 2:09 AM

It should be noted that Combat specs gain a lot more from Grim Toll, mainly due to the massive ArP proc. E.g. for myself, Grim Toll comes ahead of both FotFF and MoT on the Roguecraft Spreadsheet. However, it wasn't too long ago when it didn't, so it's better that you check the spreadsheet for yourself.

chalon · 02/03/09, 3:53 AM

The Roguecraft Spreadsheet overestimates the value of Grim Toll according to Vulajin.

• Vulajin · 02/03/09, 4:21 AM

Originally Posted by chalon

The Roguecraft Spreadsheet overestimates the value of Grim Toll according to Vulajin.

That info is slightly dated, I thoroughly checked and I am not currently aware of any bugs in the armor penetration model.

Valustria · 02/03/09, 7:33 AM

Ok, this question is specifically for rogues in guilds that are downing Sartharion with all three drakes, because I'm only interested in replies from those whose tanks are in excellent gear and clearing the most challenging encounters:

Who is your Tricks of the Trade target? Do you trick another DPS who can dump threat, or do you trick the tanks holding whatever you are currently attacking?

I ask because I used to be in guilds that... well, were not all that great. I used to trick tanks all the time to help them pick up and hold aggro on their targets . I recently joined a guild that is much more competent overall and someone commented on my use of TotT on the main tank, saying that the tanks in my old guilds must have sucked if they needed for me to use it on them. Well... that might be so, but it was necessary sometimes, and I feel nervous about going into an encounter without throwing at least my initial burst of aggro to the tank. Any advice about what to do?

Neto- · 02/03/09, 8:10 AM

Using Tricks on the whelp tank is usually a good idea; it absolutely trivializes AOE tanking. There's pretty much zero risk that anyone is going to pull aggro from the whelps if you do so.

Giving the drake tank Tricks right as the drake lands will also help rule out any chance that people pull early aggro, while the tank is building up threat and may be caught in an unlucky situation. So, those are the only good situations to Tricks a tank - any other time the cooldown is up, you might as well give it to DPS.

@Grim Toll, it's a lot better than most people give it credit for, specially for Combat builds. For Mutilate, it's very unlikely that it is competitive, but for Combat, it's definitely situationally better than Fury of the Five Flights for a number of boss fights (depending on fight duration or interruptions that favor an ICD trinket).

Feist-Mok · 02/03/09, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

Ok, this question is specifically for rogues in guilds that are downing Sartharion with all three drakes, because I'm only interested in replies from those whose tanks are in excellent gear and clearing the most challenging encounters:

Who is your Tricks of the Trade target? Do you trick another DPS who can dump threat, or do you trick the tanks holding whatever you are currently attacking?

It's entirely situational.

As a rule of thumb the first tricks goes to the tank, and every tricks thereafter can be used on DPS. There are exceptions of course though, and Sarth 3D is probably the best example of one. On that fight, I tricks the Drake tank as each drake lands - our other Rogue tricks Sarth to out MT at the pull so that I don't have to yell at the idiots who insist on DPSing him while he's being positioned, and then Tricks+FoK for the whelp tank - after that, we trade Tricks between ourselves for the rest of the fight.

xvvx01 · 02/03/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

Ok, this question is specifically for rogues in guilds that are downing Sartharion with all three drakes, because I'm only interested in replies from those whose tanks are in excellent gear and clearing the most challenging encounters:

Who is your Tricks of the Trade target? Do you trick another DPS who can dump threat, or do you trick the tanks holding whatever you are currently attacking?

On Sarth3D I put TotT on drake tank when Tenebron lands and when it's AoE time after Tenebron's death I put it on the adds tank. That's about it. I don't put it on any DPS because the CD is usually in line with each drake's landing/death that I would feel safer putting it on a tank so that no one dies by pulling aggro.

Tinwhisker · 02/03/09, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

Sartharion with all three drakes... Who is your Tricks of the Trade target? Do you trick another DPS who can dump threat, or do you trick the tanks holding whatever you are currently attacking?

Just to reiterate what has been said here, I TotT each drakes tank as they land (actually I have a focus on the tank for the 1st and 3rd drake tank; another rogue has a focus on the 2nd drake tank).

Getting the drakes down fast is important and often times they land when tsunami is about to pass through so the tank is often on the move. The tank may or may not need the extra threat but the extra cushion is good protection against suicidal mages. I also pop TotT on my focus just after the first drake is down and we're clearing the adds (FoK spam). That's for my own protection more than anything else.

Once the three drakes are down, I have a button to reset my focus to another DPS (Fury/TG warrior) and just DPS normally. As for DPS warriors having no threat dump, it doesn't matter. The Sarth tank should have a massive, almost insurmountable lead on threat at that point.

Kitherdra · 02/03/09, 9:57 AM

Disclaimer: I'm horrible at articulation at times, this being one.

I have been running 51/13/7 since i hit 80, with only 2 points in ruthlessness and 1 point in vigor+glyph, seeing as how there really isn't a third glyph worth grabbing.

Recently I gave in to the final min/max, I had total control over, and transferred the point i had in vigor into ruthlessness in an attempt to net 5 more dps as shown in the spreadsheet.

The issue i was having after that is I would cap out energy waiting for rupture to fall so i can refresh it to resume generating CPs for my envenom. I'm well ahead in my rotation, having 4 combo points for a rupture and 15-17 or so seconds left on slice and dice yet I just can't seem to not cap out my energy whilst pooling before rupture/waiting for rupture to fall(I get the "a more powerful spell is active when i try to refresh a 4pt rupture with another) without vigor+glyph for pve.

If it helps to know, i pool all i can(75+ energy) before using my finishers, especially envenom, so i am able to fire off 2 mutilates within the envenom +% to proc poisons buff.
I time my envenoms between DP ticks as well as cut to the chase at >2seconds and refreshing HfB at 1-2secs.

Am I pooling too much energy?
Using my finishers at the wrong time?
Is the rupture glyph screwing me?

I'm at a total loss atm.

Also, perhaps this question belongs elsewhere but is there a benefit to being able to pool that extra 20energy at the loss of a 20% chance to get a random CP proc on a finisher?

(the only variable worth noting, outside of my control, is that i live and work outside the US and have an inherent latency of about 270-350ms)

Loot · 02/03/09, 9:59 AM

Downed S25-3D 4 times already, I always use TotT on the tanks as I'm about to overagro and the others are completely capped

People are trigger happy and I use TotT at the very start someone pulls agro first 2-3 seconds for granted

Leto · 02/03/09, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kitherdra

Disclaimer: I'm horrible at articulation at times, this being one.

I have been running 51/13/7 since i hit 80, with only 2 points in ruthlessness and 1 point in vigor+glyph, seeing as how there really isn't a third glyph worth grabbing.

Recently I gave in to the final min/max, I had total control over, and transferred the point i had in vigor into ruthlessness in an attempt to net 5 more dps as shown in the spreadsheet.

The issue i was having after that is I would cap out energy waiting for rupture to fall so i can refresh it to resume generating CPs for my envenom. I'm well ahead in my rotation, having 4 combo points for a rupture and 15-17 or so seconds left on slice and dice yet I just can't seem to not cap out my energy whilst pooling before rupture/waiting for rupture to fall(I get the "a more powerful spell is active when i try to refresh a 4pt rupture with another) without vigor+glyph for pve.

If it helps to know, i pool all i can(75+ energy) before using my finishers, especially envenom, so i am able to fire off 2 mutilates within the envenom +% to proc poisons buff.
I time my envenoms between DP ticks as well as cut to the chase at >2seconds and refreshing HfB at 1-2secs.

Am I pooling too much energy?
Using my finishers at the wrong time?
Is the rupture glyph screwing me?

I'm at a total loss atm.

Also, perhaps this question belongs elsewhere but is there a benefit to being able to pool that extra 20energy at the loss of a 20% chance to get a random CP proc on a finisher?

(the only variable worth noting, outside of my control, is that i live and work outside the US and have an inherent latency of about 270-350ms)

If you're pooling for rupture and you're about to cap, try just envenoming. You should have plenty of time to get 4+ more cp before rupture drops.

The main time I pool significantly is for reapplying rupture, while I envenom usually as soon as I can. I'll wait for a tick of dp, etc, but I generally don't do more than 3 seconds of pooling for an envenom unless snd is about to fall off.

• Hellbor · 02/03/09, 11:13 AM

Are you opening with garrote or mut on boss fights? I've found opening with garrote is a DPS gain over opening with mutilate. I know there are some complaints over positioning for garrote but I've had very few problems in this regard.
If things go right I can open with a garrote, SnD, mut to 4 CP, Rupture, mut, and then envenom.

Also right now I have Murder and LPC, would you put Murder in the MH? 6 weeks of Naxx and no WD /cry!

Thanks.

Leto · 02/03/09, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Hellbor

If things go right I can open with a garrote, SnD, mut to 4 CP, Rupture, mut, and then envenom.

Also right now I have Murder and LPC, would you put Murder in the MH? 6 weeks of Naxx and no WD /cry!

Thanks.

That's the thing, "if things go right". About half the time you won't be able to do 1 mut finishers, and you basically need 1 mut finishers to get that sequence off.

Also, you should probably use LPC in your mh and murder in your oh.

chalon · 02/03/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

That info is slightly dated, I thoroughly checked and I am not currently aware of any bugs in the armor penetration model.

Ah, okay.

Well, even so if Grim Toll is better for Combat in certain scenarios, it certainly isn't by a huge amount (as those EP values which were posted would suggest).