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Old 11/21/08, 5:00 PM   #151
lypheforce
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Lypheforce
Night Elf Rogue
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Stop doing this. If you know there are no magic numbers, then you know that your first two quoted lines above are wrong. What you should "think" about is getting the best piece of gear at any particular time as indicated by DPS models. Sometimes this will mean your hit or expertise will be at a certain level. Sometimes it won't.
I understand what you are saying and I probably just worded it badly. It wasn't that I was looking for targets to try and hit at all costs or at the expense of better gear ... more so, I wanted to know what a good level was in a perfect world without other stats sacrificed.

The input was appreciated ... Cheers - Lyphe

Last edited by lypheforce : 11/21/08 at 5:24 PM.

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Old 11/21/08, 5:37 PM   #152
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
The correct, unmisinterpretable statement to make is that those values are the inflection points where the EP equivalence changes. Just about any other statement you can make is an exagerration. In a perfect world where no other stats are sacrificed, you get as much as you can without any heed to caps since it's free. In the real world, those are the values where after you achieve them by whatever gearing method you were previously following, you reload your spreadsheet and clean your mind of previous assumptions before picking your next piece of gear. If there is anything of note that makes those numbers magic, it's that a few edge cases of cycles reseting due to misses (finishers and DP stacks, respectively) cease to exist, but that has more to do with the variance of your DPS than the mean so it's a matter of personal preference. Actually it's probably more to do with the skewness, but I don't think any of our spreadsheets yet model third moments, so it resolves to personal choice anyways.


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Old 11/21/08, 5:47 PM   #153
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Octaviann View Post
Is there a simple rule of thumb for mutilate for how much weapon damage per second .1 speed is worth? I ask so that I can quickly compare, say, a 1.8 speed dagger with higher dps to a 1.4 speed dagger with lower dps without having to plug the particular weapons into a spreadsheet. This would be similar to how, for combat, an offhand the equivalent of a weapon 10 dps higher for every .1 it was faster. I.e, a 1.4 speed 90 dps was equivalent to a 1.5 speed 100 dps offhand. What is a similar conversion for mutilate?
For the off-hand which has Deadly Poison, it's actually not that much. Sinister Revenge @ 171 DPS and 1.8s is very slightly (we're talking like 4-5 DPS @ 5k DPS) better than Webbed Death @ 156 DPS and 1.4s.

However, the numbers change dramatically when you're looking at the MH with instant poison. I'm not able to really give you exact numbers at the moment, so I don't want to speculate, but Webbed Death is better than Sinister Revenge for the MH by a fairly significant margin.

Last edited by chalon : 11/21/08 at 5:48 PM. Reason: clarified who this was in response to

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Old 11/21/08, 6:00 PM   #154
Akeldema
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Nagrand
Regarding Avoidance tanking,
Will It even Be possible in wotlk due to the changes in the dodge and parry formulas
(Dodge and parry rating now have diminishing return, i.e. additional 10 agility at 40% dodge now gives significantly less extra dodge % than at 20% dodge.)

Also If so Dose anyone have some solid numbers on stats needed.

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Old 11/21/08, 6:10 PM   #155
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Stop doing this. If you know there are no magic numbers, then you know that your first two quoted lines above are wrong. What you should "think" about is getting the best piece of gear at any particular time as indicated by DPS models. Sometimes this will mean your hit or expertise will be at a certain level. Sometimes it won't.
Only because you know I love arguing with you, and being pedantic, and this is an opportunity to do both, but there is one case where these ... uhm ... 'soft caps' are important, and that's in gemming - since the gem stat values are static, but the EP values of those stats aren't a continuous function, the EP values of gems above and below certain points of discontinuity is probably valuable information.

So, here are those values, for simple reference:

Starting with these EP values provided by Aldriana: Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

Also referencing Chalon's expertise caps: Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

And here's info on how to find out, according to your spec, what the various hit caps are: http://elitistjerks.com/956961-post3931.html

Then here are gem values at various thresholds. Expertise is obviously worth its value below the expertise cap and worth nothing above it, so I'm ignoring that entirely and assuming you're not overcapping Expertise. Also note that I added a non-zero value to stamina so that the stamina+DPS stat gems would float above CasterStat+DPS Stat gems.

Mutilate, below yellow hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is Glinting/Pristine, Yellow is Rigid, Blue is Vivid

Mutilate, above yellow hit cap, below poison hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is AP/AGI (equal), Yellow is Glinting/Pristine, Blue is Balanced/Shifting (equal)

Mutilate, above the poison hit cap, below hard hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is AP/AGI, Yellow is Deadly/Wicked, Blue is Balanced/Shifting

Combat, below yellow hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is Agi/AP, Yellow is Glinting/Pristine, Blue is Balanced/Shifting

Combat, above yellow hit cap, below poison hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is Agi/AP, Yellow is Glinting/Pristine, Blue is Balanced/Shifting

Combat, above poison hit cap, below hard hit cap: Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

Red is AGI/AP, Yellow is Deadly/Wicked, Blue is Balanced/Shifting

Last edited by Shaker : 11/21/08 at 6:21 PM. Reason: formatting

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

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Old 11/21/08, 7:36 PM   #156
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
There's also the complicating factor on whether the soft caps changes whether it's worthwhile to even go after an individual socket bonus in the first place.


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Old 11/21/08, 7:53 PM   #157
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
A site like lootrank will do the socket bonus check for you - the only case in which it may be off is in the edge case of "If I gem to get the socket bonus, then the +4 hit rating socket bonus is no longer worth gemming to get it, but if I don't gem to get it, I'm below the number making hit valuable enough to get" - in which case you are quite literally talking about a 1-3 EP value difference AT THE MOST, and if you're worried about the answers to that degree of accuracy, then quite honestly you can spend the time to figure it out using the tools given to you on these forums and not ask for someone else to do it.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

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Old 11/21/08, 8:08 PM   #158
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
It's not a particularly hard problem to solve, you don't even need a spreadsheet or a website. Find the EP equivalence for each gem under each cap-condition, compare the EP of full max-EP gems to that of a matched socket. For example, the EP of a blue Glinting gem drops by 1.6 after you hit the yellow cap, which I could see making a difference (well, a theoretical one, not a noticeable performance one).
The edge case you mention is particularly inane, and while it is likely to come up as you gem your gear I agree it's to small to worry about. In that instance, I would say capping is better, because at least some of your hit is still taking place below the cap and therefore at a higher EP value (over half for the socket bonus to make a difference). It's a bit weird that the value of a stat would change mid-way through equipping a gem, but that's the nature of discontinuities.


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Old 11/21/08, 8:33 PM   #159
Aeviana
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Area 52
What is the offhand hit cap? People are saying to put wounding on the faster weapon, but unless your hit is way up there shouldnt it be on the MH since it wouldnt miss?

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Old 11/21/08, 8:56 PM   #160
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Aeviana View Post
What is the offhand hit cap? People are saying to put wounding on the faster weapon, but unless your hit is way up there shouldnt it be on the MH since it wouldnt miss?
There is no difference in hit cap. When you dual wield all your white attacks get the miss penalty.

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Old 11/21/08, 9:48 PM   #161
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
The reason to (generally) put Deadly on your MH, is to get 4-5 stacks back up asap for your envenoms, which means Wound goes to the OH.
At the same time, your OH is generally much faster than your MH, while your MH is used for most of your special attacks, which suffer a much lower hitcap. As a result, the applicationrate between the two is almost the same, but currently it seems that the MH is slightly better to stack up a poison.

So the question actually wasn't "Why does Wound go on that hand", but the question was "Why does Deadly go on that hand".

And this theory was modeled after the 5s/5r/5n and the mutilate rotations, if you prefer to stick to an Xs/Yr rotation or use Eviscerate instead of Envenom, then the difference is much smaller, since you'll be applying Deadly to keep it up to 4-5 stacks, not to constantly bring it up to 4-5 stacks.

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Old 11/21/08, 10:07 PM   #162
weka
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Archimonde
I was wondering...

Is there any possible way the spreadsheet could be modified so that we could, say, check boxes with all of the gear that we own, put in our spec, and it would tell us what the best choices are? So instead of a dropdown menu with individual pieces of gear, we can just check a bunch of boxes and it automatically tells us what combination would best synergize. I think this would be a good idea.

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Old 11/21/08, 11:15 PM   #163
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by weka View Post
I think this would be a good idea.
Undoubtedly. It would also be ridiculously, prohibitively difficult to accomplish within the framework of a spreadsheet. If you have exactly two choices in as few as half of your gear slots, then the number of possible combinations of gear is 256. Increase the number of choices or the number of gear slots and it gets exponentially worse. Something like that might be feasible for a calculator or other program, but not for a spreadsheet.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 11/22/08, 1:29 PM   #164
Reizors
Glass Joe
 
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Undead Rogue
 
Caelestrasz
Is anyone else having trouble with Tricks of the Trade?
I've been using it since day 2 of LK, and everytime I pull a boss with it, the boss/mob will hit me once before it goes to the tank.

So it looks like this:
Cold Blood -> TotT -> Distract mob, walk up behind.
Perfectly executed Ambush, mob doesn't see me or nothing, and the mob will hit me once on it's way walking to the tank.

Has happened every single time I pull with TotT.
The only time it doesn't happen, is when I get my tank to "shoot" the boss and I instantly ambush for 6k~ when the shot lands, No damage taken.

I play with 171ms, best possible from australia. Perhaps the threat transfering to tank and the 171ms is not good fast enough for the server to translate and I just end up being hit once before it figures out what happened.

*shrug*... working as intended?

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Old 11/22/08, 8:58 PM   #165
Akeldema
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Nagrand
Originally Posted by Reizors View Post
Is anyone else having trouble with Tricks of the Trade?
I've been using it since day 2 of LK, and everytime I pull a boss with it, the boss/mob will hit me once before it goes to the tank.

So it looks like this:
Cold Blood -> TotT -> Distract mob, walk up behind.
Perfectly executed Ambush, mob doesn't see me or nothing, and the mob will hit me once on it's way walking to the tank.

Has happened every single time I pull with TotT.
The only time it doesn't happen, is when I get my tank to "shoot" the boss and I instantly ambush for 6k~ when the shot lands, No damage taken.

I play with 171ms, best possible from australia. Perhaps the threat transfering to tank and the 171ms is not good fast enough for the server to translate and I just end up being hit once before it figures out what happened.

*shrug*... working as intended?
Sounds a little odd, Ill jump on and give it a try in a moment. sounds like as you said the server is just not sending the agro to the tank quick enough, With a hunters MissDirect there is always the second or two between the shot landing and the mob reaching the tank.

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