Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 115

Minoritee · 05/13/09, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

All of these questions can be answered through the use of a spreadsheet.

I looked at a few spreadsheets, and I got slightly different answers. This is why I'm asking

Batlain · 05/13/09, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Minoritee

I looked at a few spreadsheets, and I got slightly different answers. This is why I'm asking

The spreadsheets are tools which are open to interpretation. If your results are inconclusive, any of your weapon choices will work. It will depend of what drops first or what you currently have.

Joigahdenn · 05/13/09, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Minoritee

I looked at a few spreadsheets, and I got slightly different answers. This is why I'm asking

Ok, I can understand how that might introduce a little confusion. Something to keep in mind, while these sheets are really fairly accurate, they provide estimates. If you're getting *similar* results, I think it is a safe bet to assume that whatever weapons (or all gear for that matter) you are comparing is relatively close in quality.

Thus, my suggestion would be to pick a spreadsheet, and go with that one. As far as I know, the general consensus is that all three combat specs are within ~1% dps of each other given weapons of similar ilvl and speed. So, just compare different compositions of weapons (changing the talents sheet as appropriate) available to you and whichever combination yields the highest dps should be your goal. As an example, given my current gear and level of progression I am at, my best options for weapons are Masticator/Combatant's Bootblade (CQC) and Malice/Rune-Etched Nightblade (Swords), and the swords come out ahead for me, so that is what I am going for.

Joigahdenn · 05/13/09, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

It's worth keeping in mind which cooldown synergize with each other, and which don't. Briefly stated:

Blade Flurry synergizes with Heroism - you want them at the same time. Killing Spree does not - it doesn't really matter whether you stack them or not. And Adrenaline Rush arguably has slight *negative* synergy with Heroism - the haste means you're slightly more likely to cap out on energy through CP. Hence, for fights where there isn't a specific "burn" phase that you're using cooldowns to get to, it generally makes sense to use Adrenaline Rush somewhat independently of Heroism. If, of course, there is a specific burn phase, you stack them to make the timer and don't worry about the fact that it might be ever-so-slightly suboptimal.

TotT, on the other hand, synergizes well with KSp (as all damage can be done during the buff), gains some benefit from AR and Heroism, but only benefits minimally from Blade Flurry - and in particular, to get any benefit at all, you need to pre-cast the Blade Flurry. That is, you want to take the energy hit to activate it and regen it back before the Tricks goes off.

That said: Tricks should be happening every 30 seconds anyway, and - other than KSp (and even that's a bit debatable) it's not generally worth waiting on your cooldowns to align with a Tricks, unless you're very confident that the fight duration is such won't cost you an extra usage as a result. So the general advice I'd give is: make sure to have BF ready during Heroism (assuming you don't have to wait too long, anyway), and aligning KSps with TotTs is not a bad idea - but, other than that, stuff should mostly be used on cooldown rather than waiting for cooldowns to align.

So, to sum it up, time your Blade Flurry so it coincides with Heroism, and unless you're in a specific burn phase use your CD's as they become available. Now my question is, would it be smarter to use the CD's as soon as they are available (provided you can) or to wait until your Trinkets proc again (which could even be timed with TotT)? In the worst case scenario, where you're trinkets just ran out you're waiting about 40 seconds for the next proc, and more commonly about ~25 seconds. Greatness, Mjonir Runestone, and Grim Toll have pretty similar behavior in terms of proccing and ICD, which would favor waiting even more.

kippyhiller · 05/13/09, 6:28 PM

This might be the definition of a simple question with a simple answer, but I've spent the last hour or so searching and haven't managed to find it...

Deadly Poison is always cited (for combat) as your off-hand poison.

I'm curious why that is. With your off-hand weapon being faster, I had previously thought all the over-applications would be wasted, and it would be better suited for a main-hand poison.
Yet, it has been this way even before the ppm poison change, when I would have expected the fast speed of most off-hand weapons to be even more beneficial to wound/instant poison.

My only guess so far is the danger of having your 5-stack DP drop off due to slow main-hand weapons is more costly than the over-application on a fast off-hand.

Is there a simple answer to this?

Maltese · 05/13/09, 6:38 PM

Your special attacks and finishers have a chance to apply poisons, which is why instant/wound is applied to your MH weapon.

kippyhiller · 05/13/09, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Maltese

Your special attacks and finishers have a chance to apply poisons, which is why instant/wound is applied to your MH weapon.

Ah. That slipped my mind.

So, the total number of potential procs off of the main-hand is higher when taking into account specials?

Thanks.

chalon · 05/13/09, 6:58 PM

Also, the PPM system means you want a PPM-based poison on a slow weapon.

• Aldriana · 05/13/09, 7:11 PM

Well, couple of points.

Previously (i.e., before 3.1), you wanted Deadly Poison on whichever hand generated fewer attacks - period. And it did depends to some extent on your relative weapon speeds and such - with a particularly slow MH and a particularly fast OH, it was theoretically possible to reach a point where DP MH was better. But in general, one did do more attacks with the MH weapon, due to Sinister Strikes and the like.

Post 3.1, however, autoattacks will generate the same number of poison procs regardless of weapon speed; thus, as a general rule, you want WP/IP on the hand that performs more *instant* attacks. And for combat, all instant attacks are performed with the MH only, so that means the offhand gets Deadly and the MH takes IP/WP. The fact that the weapon is, additionally, slow in turn increases the number of procs as well. As it works out, under PPM poisons, a slow MH is about the best possible thing you could ask for in terms of PPM poison procs, whereas a fast OH is nothing at all special.

Now, with Mutilate, where the number of attacks between hands are more similar, the relative speeds of the weapons also play a role - if you had a fast MH and a slow OH, you could imagine wanting to reverse the usual order of things and use IP on the slower weapon. However, this proves suboptimal for other reasons - between the instant attack damage and focused attacks, it's generally better to have Slow MH/Fast OH. Thus, we're in the same position as combat - the MH is slower and has more instant attacks, hence is the superior choice for a PPM poison.

Axodry · 05/13/09, 7:46 PM

I recently changed my main to a rogue from a warrior. I was using Vulajin's spreadsheet, but that hasn't been updated yet for 3.1. That said, Aldriana's sheet is mainly for those rogues that are in Uldaar and using BIS gear or close to it already...thus my question. I don't want to really waste 1k gold on a berserker enchant right now on my MH Dagger (Fleshshaper). I've read read that ArP gets better as you get more and more of it. I have roughly 11% ArP currently with 3200 AP & 32% Crit. Would Mongoose still be the better MH enchant choice or Executioner? I havn't had any luck yet with Grim Toll unfortunately.
Thanks,

aKeio · 05/13/09, 10:30 PM

Now this may seem like a hand-hold question, but I seriously don't understand nor seem to grasp what I am doing wrong.

According to the spreadsheet my estimated DPS is 5918.9;

However in actuality (according to recount), in 25-man raids I pull maybe only 5k at best on bosses.

Here is a WWS: Wow Web Stats
of a chunk of a Naxx25 run, from last week. I have upgraded a few pieces since then but my DPS hasn't increased too much since.

I am...
running a Combat-Swords 15/51/5 spec
properly enchanted
properly gemmed
Running a rotation of roughly 2-3s/4-5r + sneaking in eviscerates without letting any of those drop.
Using the appropriate poisons.

Why is there such variance between my estimated and actual?

Valustria · 05/13/09, 11:00 PM

I don't know what the variance between estimated and actual DPS is supposed to look like, but I can say for sure that your actual is never going to reach or exceed your estimated without crazy encounter-specific buffs or mechanics (XT's exposed heart phase, for instance).

I think, right now my estimated DPS is 6300-ish; my actual is in the mid- to high 5ks. I think a couple hundred is probably par for the course given that you have to deal with things like network latency and human error -- you know, the shit that never factors into the spreadsheet's estimated DPS.

aKeio · 05/14/09, 12:04 AM

That has crossed my mind too, but can lag/latency really account for almost 800+ variance in DPS?

And even if, my latency is generally <100 when raiding.
I've double checked my spreadsheet settings and they are set properly.

I'm totally at loss here; can't find the source of the variance.

Valustria · 05/14/09, 12:56 AM

This gave me an idea... what if you really could factor latency into a spreadsheet? Like, maybe you input your ping and it adds that wherever necessary to the equation that determines your DPS, to help bring your DPS estimate closer in line with what you should expect to be seeing, provided you are not playing terribly. Something like this possible?

• Aldriana · 05/14/09, 1:13 AM

You can, and to some extent they already do - my Combat sheet, for instance, allows some SnD overlap when computing cycles to deal with the fact that cycles are imperfect.

Thing is - particularly as combat - latency doesn't tend to be a large factor. As long as your energy doesn't cap out, you're not really losing any DPS by doing a move a second or two late (or early). As long as your cycles are working out, it's more or less fine.

That said, there are still some ideal assumptions in the spreadsheet(s) that may not match reality - i.e., full buffs for the entire fight duration, perfect cycles all fight, no interruptions of any sort, all cooldowns used exactly when they come up, and so on. This proves to be somewhat rare, which accounts for part of the DPS difference that is observed. And this harder to account for.

Spearhawk · 05/14/09, 6:19 AM

How good is the Revitalize from a druid? Say if you had a druid willing to keep Wild Growth up constantly?

Sorry if this has been answered before, I tried using the search function and came up nothing.

Homeless · 05/14/09, 8:43 AM

I tried to use the latest spreadsheet, but I don't know how to add a weapon so I must ask the question here:

I am combat, and I currently have CG/WD with the CQC cookie cutter build. In our last run I picked up Malice. I understand that fist/sword is a sub-par spec, so I would have to go to straight sword spec to really use it, but I only have Hatestrike available to me as an offhand sword.

My question is, would fist/sword (CG/Malice) be less DPS than using sword spec with hatestrike as an offhand. Another way to put it would be what is the percent drop in DPS for using the fist/sword spec vs the straight sword spec with a lower DPS offhand? The spreadsheet does not have Hatestrike as a weapon I can choose at all, and I can't put Malice in the offhand to compare.

I don't want to spend the gold enchanting the offhand if I am not going to use it...I intend to get a better one, so I might just stay CQC if the difference is tremendous.

Tomlittle · 05/14/09, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Kilgore

classtimer is a very handy addon for that. You need to make sure you grab the latest version (may even be considered a beta unless they released a new one) because if not, it'll have that same problem you have.

thanks a lot mate, same problem for me. I'll try the new one today.

trrdr · 05/14/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Homeless

My question is, would fist/sword (CG/Malice) be less DPS than using sword spec with hatestrike as an offhand.

Yes, CG/Malice would be a tremendously inferior combination compared to Malice/Hatestrike. Malice is a 2.5 speed weapon, you will never want to use it in your offhand.

Until you can pick up a Rune-etched Nightblade, you should stick to CG/WD with CQC, at least that's what Aldriana's sheet tells me for my gear, since CG/WD comes out ahead of Malice/Hailstorm and Hailstorm is better than Hatestrike.

Joigahdenn · 05/14/09, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Homeless

I tried to use the latest spreadsheet, but I don't know how to add a weapon so I must ask the question here:

I am combat, and I currently have CG/WD with the CQC cookie cutter build. In our last run I picked up Malice. I understand that fist/sword is a sub-par spec, so I would have to go to straight sword spec to really use it, but I only have Hatestrike available to me as an offhand sword.

My question is, would fist/sword (CG/Malice) be less DPS than using sword spec with hatestrike as an offhand. Another way to put it would be what is the percent drop in DPS for using the fist/sword spec vs the straight sword spec with a lower DPS offhand? The spreadsheet does not have Hatestrike as a weapon I can choose at all, and I can't put Malice in the offhand to compare.

I don't want to spend the gold enchanting the offhand if I am not going to use it...I intend to get a better one, so I might just stay CQC if the difference is tremendous.

Originally Posted by trrdr

Yes, CG/Malice would be a tremendously inferior combination compared to Malice/Hatestrike. Malice is a 2.5 speed weapon, you will never want to use it in your offhand.

Until you can pick up a Rune-etched Nightblade, you should stick to CG/WD with CQC, at least that's what Aldriana's sheet tells me for my gear, since CG/WD comes out ahead of Malice/Hailstorm and Hailstorm is better than Hatestrike.

Correct, never equip a 2.5 speed weapon into your off-hand. However, I think the difference between Malice/Hailstorm (not Hatestrike in this case) is close enough that you (Homeless) will want to enter your gear into the spreadsheet and see what results you get. I took a quick look and what I am seeing Malice/Hailstorm > GC/WD, but the difference between these setups (assuming Berserking on all) is only about 0.2% dps. However, picking up a Rune-Etched Nightblade in addition to Malice will ultimately result on higher dps than GC/Golem-Shard Sticker, so I'd go with swords until you get into late 25man content (Mimiron and beyond) or 10/25man hardmodes.

Zoephobia · 05/14/09, 4:30 PM

I've been playing combat fo a while now. Spreadsheets tell me, that a 3s/5r/5e rotation should be the best for me. However I sometimes run into cycle confusions.
The following situation keeps vexing me: I'm at or around 10 seconds of SnD, 3 combo points and 60-70 energy. Now the point is: if I continue with 3cp SnD's I will either have energy cap or overlap 8 seconds of SnD. Or I can go to 5 cp's eviscerate and maybe lose 1-3 seconds of SnD uptime. Or I can go 3 cp eviscerate and probably keep a 3cp SnD cycle without losing uptime. Which of these is the solution?

€dit: I didn't do the math on those numbers, they were just an example so don't calculate anything with those.

croenaur · 05/14/09, 4:43 PM

So I've been reading the last couple pages of posts and have realized the majority of questions and discussions are revolving around combat spec. I haven't checked these forums much since 3.1 so please excuse my lack of knowledge at the moment, but is combat now the raid spec for rogues? I am currently raiding as mutilate. Simple question, hopefully simple answer.

Zoephobia · 05/14/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by croenaur

So I've been reading the last couple pages of posts and have realized the majority of questions and discussions are revolving around combat spec. I haven't checked these forums much since 3.1 so please excuse my lack of knowledge at the moment, but is combat now the raid spec for rogues? I am currently raiding as mutilate. Simple question, hopefully simple answer.

There are some fights where one or the other are better, but I'd generally say there isn't much difference. Play whatever suits you more.

gedo · 05/14/09, 5:15 PM

I'm a combat rogue and I was "caught" equipping 2 slow weapons and wound poisons on both during a raid and laughed at.

I use CG(wound)+WD(deadly) for boss fights. I sometimes switch to CG(wound)+Pride(wound) for AoE trash. I do this mostly because I feel deadly poison on trash is a waste and I don't feel like re-applying poisons on WD every boss fights.

So... I did some math.

10sec 4target trash pull = 100 + 12.5/sec*10sec = 225energy => TotT + 4FoK
AP=5000 AP/14=357
crit/parry factor = 55% hit 40%crit 5%parry(?) 0%dodge 0% yellow-miss = (0.55 + 0.4*2*1.23 PotW/RED+ 0.05*0) = 1.53
Wound poison (231 + 0.04AP) * 30%crit = 560/proc
Deadly poison (296 + 0.08AP)/5tick/stack = 139/tick/stack
Average # of deadly ticks in 10sec = 2 (Some will tick 3 times, some will tick only once... just took 2, I could be off here)

weapon+poison	min	max	speed	avg	AP	sum	dw	dagger	crt/parry	poison chance	poison dmg	total dmg/FoK/target
CG+wound	356	535	2.6	446	926	1372	-	-	2099	0.5*2.6/1.4=0.93	520	2619
Pride+wound	251	467	2.5	359	897	1256	942	-	1441	0.5*2.5/1.4=0.89	498	1939
WD+wound	153	285	1.4	219	499	718	538	807	1235	0.5*1.4/1/4=0.5	280	1515
WD+deadly	153	285	1.4	219	499	718	538	807	1235	0.3*<#tick>	83	1318

CG-WP + Pride-WP = (2619+1938)*4FoK*4targets/10sec = 7.3kdps
CG-WP + WD-WP = (2619+1515)*4FoK*4targets/10sec = 6.6kdps
CG-WP + WD-DP = (2619+1318)*4FoK*4targets/10sec = 6.3kdps

I didn't include white attack & CP (will favor WD), Kspree (will favor Pride) nor BF. I'm guessing they won't change the conclusion.

Can anyone find mistakes? What am I missing? Am I crazy to switch weapon for trash?
(sorry if there is math done before... I did search but could not find).

Tinwhisker · 05/14/09, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by croenaur

So I've been reading the last couple pages of posts and have realized the majority of questions and discussions are revolving around combat spec. I haven't checked these forums much since 3.1 so please excuse my lack of knowledge at the moment, but is combat now the raid spec for rogues? I am currently raiding as mutilate. Simple question, hopefully simple answer.

A lot of the discussion about which is better (Combat vs Mutilate) is based around BiS gear and the mechanics of certain fights. Spec alone will not determine your DPS; there is no situation I'm aware of where "good" Combat gear beats "best in slot" Mutilate gear because Combat is the stronger spec.

Combat is theoretically better on a slight majority of the Ulduar fights when wearing BiS gear, BiS professions, with all raid buffs present, and all that stuff; take that with the grain of salt it deserves and play the game accordingly.