Tinwhisker

All of the answers to these questions (and your followups) are found here and here.

In short, do not mix weapon specs. And since you will never be in a situation where you have all weapons of all types of equal level, don't worry about it.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

campiona

I know your pain! I have a fairly equal set of daggers, a fist/dagger combo, a good combat sword set, and a pretty decent mace set. I'm with tsketteler here: have there been any models done to show which of these items is the most productive in terms of DPS?

The rest of the raid usually counts on rogues to be at or near the top of the damage meters. If they aren't dealing massive amounts of damage -- especially at key moments in a fight (XT-002's heart, Kolo's right arm) -- then they aren't reliable and worthy to raid. And I, for one, know that my guildies don't see me as anything other than a damage dealer. If I don't deal damage, then I'm not welcome.

So I wonder which combination of weapons in tandem with tweaks to our spec actually work the best...?

 

Batlain

These questions are best answered by a spreadsheet due to the way stats interact with one another. As Tinwhisker has stated, you will never be in a situation where all weapons are equal.

The reason we reference the spreadsheet is so there is a quantifiable way to determine these questions. In the end, it will come down to your gear, stat prioritization and play style preference.

 

campiona

You are right about the spreadsheets. Both of them totally help me all the time. I've haven't theorycrafted with my other 80 yet (lock), but when I do I will be surprised (and delighted) if the collection of warlock resources is any better than those put together by the Rogue community. So thanks to Aldriana, Vulajin, etc. for all their contributions.

Here is a quick story that totally supports using the spreadsheets:

The other night, I had a bit of a breakthrough with the spreadsheet (which for me, a relative newcomer to the group of WoW players that theorycraft, is a big thing.)

I figured out that swapping my t7 shoulders out with a significant Ulduar25 upgrade, and then maintaining the 4-piece t7 bonus by swapping out a near-BiS item in the Hood of the Exodus -- which, on paper, is a vastly superior item from the 10-main t7 helm -- actually resulted in a 110 DPS increase! And the spreadsheet did not lie! The gear manipulating spawned from working in the spreadsheet actually improved my damage output -- which can be important in-game, especially as raid leaders and guild GMs get more and more picky about who they raid with. And the only thing we Rogues can do is deal damage. So any boost in that department is very welcome.

I believe in the spreadsheets.

P.S. I can get behind the idea of rogues having some sort of raid-wide buff, something minimal and in line with rogue-like abilities -- like, maybe in a raid group, rogues can use a heroism-like cooldown to provide 15% bonus to damage and healing for all raid members.. Like, a raid-wide adrenaline rush-style buff. A period where everyone can go hog-wild!

 

zetto

Nvm

 

Irongaunt

I haven't seen this answered anywhere, sooo...

It is my understanding that AR does not stack in a meaningful way with Bloodlust/Heroism. Translated, that also means it doesn't stack in a meaningful way with Blade Flurry's haste effect?

Thus, would the most prudent use of CDs be either AR alone/with relevant trinkets, then after AR is over, BF/Killing spree? I realize this is most likely an incredibly minor difference in DPS, but still something I am very curious about.

 

• Feist-Mok

AR affects energy regeneration, and by extension, yellow damage from Sinister Strike, Rupture, and notably, Eviscerate by allowing you to add an extra one to your cycle.

Blade Flurry and Lust/Heroism add haste, which increases auto-attack damage, and only tangentially impacts onto 'yellow' damage form finishers by adding additional Combat Potency procs through the increased swim speed.

While the two cooldowns have no direct impact on each other in terms of amplifying each others effects, both are greatly magnified by being stacked with trinket procs, Berserking procs, boss vulnerabilities (XT Heart et al), and other damage magnifying mechanics. The counter argument to any benefit of stacking both effects is that the combination of Adrenaline Rush and increased regen from Combat Potency can lead to energy capping - which is in fact a DPS loss. As a result, it's best to use Blade Flurry with Killing Spree, and to consider the case of Adrenaline Rush seperately - I'll often use BF+KS on the first trinket proc of a fight, and 45 seconds in, use AR on the second proc - knowing the expected duration of an encounter helps a lot here as you have a better idea of how many uses of each cooldown you can expect over that length and plan accordingly. For instance, for Hodir Hard (A 3 minute fight - it's easy to save Adrenaline Rush for a late double trinket proc/zerking prock with Storm Power up late in the fight since no matter how early I could've used it, it wouldn't have been up again before the timer hits anyway.

XT-002 Hardmode, at 10 minutes on the timer, will allow for 4 Adrenaline Rushes, so long as one isn't needed for the heart, and so long as your first is used within 45 seconds of the pull - assuming you continue to use it exactly on CD for the remainder of the fight.

 

tsketteler

Combat rogues have Savage Combat.

 

Ticia

As tsketteler mentioned, Combat Rogues have Savage Combat. Also, Mutilate rogues can have Master Poisoner, and all rogues have TotT which can be used on the pull to give the tank a big burst in threat, allowing DPS to go all out from the beginning instead of waiting for the tank to build a lead.

 

Bloodxslayer

Yeah, Savage Combat is an awesome buff to have in a raid, and increases all physical damage by 4%, which is why most rogues in hard mode progressions go Combat if they have the appropriate items.

However, I have another question. I have dual spec to Combat PvE/Mutilate PvE (because of murderable versus non-murderable bosses) and use both specs frequently in raids. Should I gem agility or AP?

 

Valyrra

Agility is what you gem for mutilate, and until you pick up a decent amount of BiS combat gear (Legguards of Cunning Deception among others) you will also gem agility. So the current choice would be Agility.

As you pick up gear, it would be wise to get extras of the pieces that are available (tier pieces for example) so when you get to the point in gear that you need to gem ArPen you can still have gear for both specs, or a majority set for both specs.

 

Echophantom

Agility is not better for Mut until 4pct8, so the choice is not as simple as you make it to be. I'd say it depends on how often you're using each spec - if you end up using combat more, gem for that, while if you end up using Mut more gem for that.

 

Thaela

Other mutilate rogues (like myself) gem Expertise since the level of expertise rating on gear at around 4pieceT7 is slim. The cycle stability gained from clawing back that expertise far outweighs the slight dps loss (for me it's an off the cuff ~1dps per gem).

 

ssjtrunks04

I have a question, I am looking at the spreadsheet and the Rough DPS for Calamity's Grasp and [Webbed Death] say 6270.1, but when I change to Calamity Grasp and [Stonerender] (much higher stats and dps) the spreadsheet says it drops to 6199, why exactly is this? I compared against Calamity Grasp and [Golem-Shard Sticker] and the DPS went up to 6271.2. There is NO difference between those two weapons except that the Dagger has 6 more AP, 4 more crit rating, and Expertise instead of Haste, and only 1 more Agi. Same speed, same damage min and max. I am expertise capped and don't need the expertise on the [Golem-Shard Sticker] . So my question is, why is the spreadsheet giving an almost identical dagger over 70 DPS more than the Mace? CQC Only counts the main hand weapon and not the OH Wep to give the 5% crit bonus, so what gives with the numbers im getting from the spreadsheet? You would think that the Webbed Death OH would give LESS rough DPS numbers than the Stonerender which is much higher in all the stats, save for being .1 speed slower.

 

Wogue

No- your character sheet only displays the crit bonus according to what you have on your mainhand. Both weapons will have crit chances individual of the other's if they aren't both the same weapon type.

To choose a hybrid spec you obviously lose some talents that could be spent somewhere else. This is a loss of dps as this talent is most likely something that actively contributes to your dps. Thus the dps loss you see.

Cogito Similis Nubis Ergo Est Nubi.
I think like a noob, therefore I am a noob.

 

Kukulcan

The CQC specialization boosts crit % of both MH and OH.

 

ssjtrunks04

Hmm, I see, that makes sense then. Thanks. Should I just wait till I have the Uld-25 MH Mace then and stick with WD? According to the speadsheet the dps numbers are about equal to CG/WD. Right now though, I don't yet have CG, just using it in the spreadsheet for comparison of best combo. Right now I have KT-Reach & WD

 

Navakai

I'm not sure how simple an answer I can receive for this question however here goes.


I'm currently running a decently geared combat rogue, the weapons i have available are;

MH: Vulmir (Mace), Insantiy's Grip (Fist)
OH: Bloodcrush Crudgel (Mace), Remorse (Sword)


Now I can't figure out what an optimal setup is.

MH: Vulmir, OH: Bloodcrush - 5/5 Combat Maces.

or

MH: Insantiy's Grip, OH: Remorse 5/5 QCQ / 3/5 Swords.


Or Insanity / Crudgel, Vulmir / Remorse variants?

It seems incredibly close, however I'm a real mix/max kinda guy so any input would be appreciated.

 

Joigahdenn

I think you'll find these threads (specifically the first post) helpful.

FAQ
Pocket Guide to WotLK

In short, go with your maces. Since the change to lightning reflexes, dual specs really don't seem to be viable currently.

 

mofidik

I might have a question that's not so simple, so please move/delete/whatever-it-is-you-do if inappropriate for this topic.

As it currently stands we have some lovely spreadsheet to provide us with values we expect for our DPS, comparing both gear and talents, but what I'm interested in is a breakdown of a more individual nature rather than the grand scheme. Mainly in light of the recent debate/questions about proc/CD syncing which is, as I understand it, a major player towards maxing your DPS.

Aside from obvious exceptions to the rule such as XT heartphase and the likes, I have a hard time warping my head around how I'm supposed to sync my cooldowns and trinkets on ordinary somewhat stationary fights. With proc cooldowns amongst themselves as well as cooldowns on abilities running out of sync, it just becomes a giant web of weaving information about when what's likely to proc and whether or not that will end up being worth saving your cooldowns for.

Now, I don't expect to see "Aldriana's Bladeflurry spreadsheet 1.0", but what I'm looking for is (perhaps rough) estimates or guidelines about what seems to be a "correct" way to sync procs and cooldowns, and for my own curiosity the ballpark number of the DPS difference between managing your procs wrong and right.

¬(-.-¬) maek stabs!

 

Tinwhisker

It's not as hard as you're trying to make it (well, it can be but doesn't have to).

Get something to tell you when the procs you're looking for occur; if you're so inclined, you can also get a mod to estimate their internal cooldowns as well.

If the fight has short "burn phases", use your cooldowns then and don't worry about procs.

If the fight length is short enough that only one set of cooldowns is available, use them during Bloodlust/Heroism and don't worry about procs.


If it's a static fight with no "burn phases" (like Ignis) then try this out:

Rogues attack fast enough that most procs will occur very shortly after the fight starts. In fact, at fight start, all of them should have at least some overlap. If the fight length is long enough to get more than a single set of cooldowns in, then blow them at the start with those first procs that all sync up very well. When they come up again, use them when you have procs up but keep in mind that it's more important to use them than to hold and wait for "the right time".

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Wrei

With dual weapon specs for combat now being largely dead, is there a rough and ready way to determine how much dps a mainhand upgrade would require to make it worth being out of spec?

Or, conversely, an offhand being out of spec. (To examine respeccing for a superior mainhand.)

 

Lightshadow

Sure is, plug your gear into a spreadsheet like Aldriana's or Mavanas' and see!

 

siralop

What is 100% rupture uptime?

I always assumed it was refreshing rupture as it ends, therefore not clipping it



also, should i be using potion of speed during bloodlust or at a different time

 

Tinwhisker

100% Rupture uptime is just that, 100% uptime. Refreshing as it ends is the most efficient way to achieve it.

Generall speaking, stacking DPS cooldowns is best. The lone case might be Adrenaline Rush or Vanish/Overkill which have lower synergistic effects than most and can be used whenever you like for nearly the same benefit as using them alone.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?