Then let me put this another way...

Here's what it would take to interrupt Vezax with FoK on 10-man (since we have already established that FoK is a very poor choice for 25-man since the spell lockout is only 3 seconds vs. 5 for Kick)

As has been noted with FoK, it can take up to a full second before it interrupts. 0.5 seconds to actually hit the target and a 0.5 second delay for the interrupt portion to take effect, leaving one with only a 1 second window to cast.

This is important because it means you must have the energy ready to use it.

Thus, you must have 50 energy at all times. Now Sinister Strike costs 40 energy, so now you are up to pooling 90 energy. You will cap out energy, or else you will fail to interrupt. In fact, at 90 energy pooling, you will cap out and lose a lot of energy. It's just not worth it. You are blowing a lot of extra energy for a non-combo point generating attack and really restricting your cycle a lot by pooling so much energy.

Compare this to kick where you only have to pool 25 + 40 or 65 energy and you get the full 2 seconds to knock the spell down and it still seems to be a no-brainer.

I think you're just making an unreasonable comparison. If you ignore the GCD (and all the other factors you mentioned), then of course FoK is the more energy efficient move with respect to DPE because Kick's DPE is zero. At the very least, you should be comparing Kick + [Whatever you were going to do with that GCD when it was time to interrupt] against FoK.

Since the other responses I think show that the answer to what you *should* do in a raid is academic, let's simplify things by ignoring the fact that Sinister Strike gives you a combo point. Then if you combine Kick + SS in one GCD versus FoK then you're getting an interrupt + SS damage for 65 energy on the one hand, and an interrupt + FoK damage for 50 energy on the other. In that case FoK probably wins out in this hypothetical scenario. However, if you were going to use that GCD for a finisher, then Kick + Finisher would win because of the energy you get back from Relentless Strikes (not to mention a possible Ruthlessness proc).

So, unless I've missed something, ignoring the fact that a Sinister Strike may add 1-2 combo points, and the fact that FoK is an inferior interrupt etc etc. Then using your GCD to Kick + SS is inferior to using it to FoK a single target, otherwise you're better off using Kick + Rupture/Eviscerate.

This discussion is akin to asking what the optimal finisher rotation is for a "Backstab Assassination build". The biggest optimization in these cases is to stop limiting yourself to excessively non-optimal situations and get into the real ball game.

Asking other people do to the math for your stupid questions is just lame. Do it yourself. :P

I really think Auturgist wants us to answer a simpler question than he posted.

"Should I focus on interrupting or should I focus on DPSing(with an interrupt bonus)?"


This is something you should ask your raid leader, and they'll most likely want you to focus on getting a reliable interrupt in than trying to squeeze in some extra hits. You're probably better off trying some attempts with Kick only and then another set of attempts with FoK.

Use whatever works best for you.

He asked in a manner of 'Kick VS FoK'; although the original post related to Vezax, his following ones did not. Let's assume this isn't a boss where to miss an interrupt means that death has just shook hands with the rest of his raid. Say on Mimiron, with the Assault bots and their cast, it is -probably- (I cannot back this up with numbers) better to FOK. The assault bot takes damage, you get the core faster, which is one of the Melees aims. As a side effect, you also interrupt.

On that basis, I think the reason behind 'Why' you' use FoK>Kick depends on the situation. Vezax is a situation where you would and should use Kick over Fan of Knives for all of the reasons posted above - Interrupt is priority to damage. Whereas in the assault bot (I couldn't think of a better example) you could say the Interrupt and Damage dealt are of equal importance. FoK FTW?

Let's say the value of the interrupt (Again, we ignore the spelllock, as he's asked to) is 25 Energy.


Is a Main-hand and Off-hand hit, taking poison procs into account, worth 25 energy?

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm asking, and you put it better than I have in the times I've tried asking. So, apologies for asking someone to do the math for me, but some people are mathematicians and I'm not -- I was hoping someone else wouldn't mind figuring it out for us. My reason is, with a lot of the talk about FoK's damage over in the Pocket Guide thread (see this post and this post), I got to wondering if using it as a primary interrupt was worth doing in terms of damage per energy. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't... I'm just asking, but I'm not the person to supply the math behind either answer. If someone is willing to investigate further based on my question, maybe we learn something.

I believe the general consensus on that is no, having that extra hit even in best in slot gear is > shorter vanish cd.

Small question. Before you get 2 piece bonus from t8 is deadly better in offhand than wound poison?

Before 3.1, Assassination uses Instant/Deadly and Combat uses Wound/Wound. After 3.1, Assassination remains the same and Combat changes to Wound/Deadly.

Optimal poisons are in the Pocket Guide.

As we have discussed in the "bugs" thread, wound/wound combination causes Savage Combat flicker. Are we sure that this does not make deadly a better choice?

It does not. Remember, Deadly Poison got a fifty percent coefficient buff in 3.1. It just flat out does more damage than wound poison now.

Quick question again - combat pre T8.5 four piece should i gem AP or Agi?

Use the spreadsheet to be certain. Keep in mind that once you have 4t8, even of the 10 man variety, you should be gemming agi - with that in mind, it may be wise to gem any pieces you intend to wear in that final setup with Agility to avoid the need to regem everything once you get your 4 piece bonus.

According to MMO-Champion latest PTR patch notes:

Combat
•Combat Potency now affects all off-hand melee attacks.

Since Combat Potency is so deep in the combat tree it's basically unreachable by any other non-combat builds. Yet Sinister Strike, Rupture, and Eviscerate all use MH only correct? Exactly what extra off-hand melee attacks is this change referring to? FOK Spam?

Shiv perhaps. But they killed it twice by removing this before, and the poisons can't crit thing.

Blade Flurry, Shiv, Killing Spree, FoK.

If so, the value of hit just took another blow. I could see that either way with how that's written, though.

If it works with FOK spam, which seems to be assured from the phrasing, that's a pretty nice boost to aoe. I'd guess they decided that shiv had fallen off of risk of being broken; even with this change, the no crits aspect would be rough.

As far as I'm aware Blade Flurry doesn't count? I don't think it seperates main-hand to offhand, white to yellow, etc. damage.

Quite a nice buff for us though; that is if they removed Combat Potency from Killing Spree and FoK in the first place. I doubt shiv use will make a massive difference.

I've seen questions being asked time and time again on the official forums and other sources concerning optimal heirloom weapons for Combat leveling. Nevertheless, no conclusive answer has been given, so I came here.

Coupled with [Venerable Dal'Rend's Sacred Charge] as your MH (I’m assuming we all accept this as being the best possible MH for combat), what is the best heirloom offhand to get if you plan on leveling to 80 via Combat Spec?

Here are the options:

[Battleworn Thrash Blade]: This apparently is too slow to receive the full effect of Combat Potency and Sword Specialization? But is Slow/Slow really that bad?

[Sharpened Scarlet Kris]: A nice fast offhand though it wont receive the full benefits of Combat Potency coupled with Sword Specialization considering it is not a Sword.

[Balanced Heartseeker]: Better stats than the Sharpened Scarlet Kris and has a higher MAEP value but not as fast so I'm not sure if this is calculated into how the weapon interacts with both talents. Also not a Sword.

In addition, which would be a better enchant for leveling? [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Agility] or [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Crusader]?


Thank You.

Honestly, when leveling you don't need to worry about optimizing combat potency procs. Strictly speaking of stats, the Heartseeker doesn't waste any on resilience and looks very tempting because of that. Realistically though, to get the nice leveling talents that are quite handy you can't spend points in two different weapon specs.

The answer to me is to go with Sacred Charge/Heartseeker and not spec into Close Quarters Combat, only Sword Spec. This frees up quite a few talent points to spend in Endurance/Sprint/Unfair Advantage/etc which will provide much more benefit when leveling than 5% more offhand crits.

I wouldn't even bother speccing into Sword Spec. There are a lot of utility talents that help while leveling. Fill out the combat tree, being certain to pick up Unfair Advantage. Then jump over to Subtlety and grab what you need there to safely stealth through mobs you don't want to have to fight (this can help a lot in questing) and eventually grab Ghostly Strike to bolster the effectiveness of Unfair Advantage while helping you survive.

In your thrown weapon spec combat build, what do you put the "extra" point into? (alternately, what do you take the extra point out of).

To get past the 7th tier, I end up having to throw away a talent point, either into Imp Sprint (*mostly* useless with 1/2, but not completely) or Endurance (2% stam in decreased cooldown time on evasion/sprint is kinda useful, I guess).

Alternately, i could throw it into Weapon Expertise, but the whole point of the build was to avoid weapon expertise wholesale since I consider Mutilate to be my "main spec', and gem for expertise cap there.

The last option is, I guess, to drop a point from a damage talent like CQC, Lethality or Pray on the Weak to fill up Imp Sprint or Endurance in its entirety. That's not something I really would prefer to do though.

So, we still have 90s cloak and vanish to remove most snares, and 50% chance to break on imp sprint will save you in half of the occasions when you would otherwise be in trouble.

Interested in thoughts.