Yes and no. You're right in the sense that it doesn't make two rolls to verify that your attack hits before checking if it crits; however, what's being asserted here is something different, namely, crit rating (and agility) convert portions of the table currently occupied by white hit to crits - you can't convert misses, dodges, parries or glances to crits. Thus, once you've converted your white hit table to all crits, glances, and misses (of various sorts), you no longer benefit from more crit - hence, the way to find the white hit cap is to take 100%, minus 24% glances, minus your miss chance, minus your dodge chance - what's left is how much room you have for crits.

Actually, this whole discussion (and the discussion in other threads) brings up something interesting...

We actually might have a way to definitely pin down the glancing rate. To my knowledge, 24% is still the best estimate. Using the crit cap, one could conceivably prove exactly where this break is. Hit and dodge are solid numbers and the 4.8% boss crit reduction has been well tested. Thus, if some Mutilate rogue that can reach the crit cap without procs were to do some testing as to the exact point where non-crits go away, we'd have the exact glancing rate.

I thought the glancing blow rate was a tuning mechanism for melee and as such each boss may have a different rate.

Hey,

There is a guild on my server that recently started up with plans to do level 60 content with the announcement of being able to turn off exp gain come 3.2, I rolled a rogue for it.

Now what i was wondering is there a way to configure Rawr for level 60, (is rawr even viable for rogues? I play a mage as my main) or are the various rogue spreadsheets able to be used to work out level 60 stat weights and such.
Pretty much we're not allowed Glyphs. Only Pre-BC chants. And can only go 31pt deep in any talent tree.

Cheers.

No, no, and probably not without a mountain of work.

Would that be possible without procs? I thought the only time one is really in danger of reaching (and surpassing) the crit cap was with Dark Matter proccing?

Ah my mistake, it's what I get for just jumping in without reading the context. Mistakenly figured it was another case of people assuming two rolls on melee attacks.

I got a question regarding a tot scenario. To maximize the damage within the 6seconds I try to time Killing Spree, the question is, should I use rupture or Eviscerate for the finishing move (15 51 5). Simpler:

Does the damage increase count for the entire rupture?

Damage of rupture is calculated upon applying it, so the answer to your question is yes it counts for all ticks.

In terms of a tuning mechanic, I don't actually believe there is such a thing.

For example, it was believed Dodge and Parry were tuning mechanics simply because people were getting strange and different numbers from them. As it seemed to turn out, it was a misunderstanding of how the mechanics actually worked. Once it was realized that bosses cannot Dodge nor Parry during certain casts, the fluctuating numbers started to make sense.

Speaking of which, here's 14% for testing right there. Attack from the front and the crit cap is reduced another 14% (minus Expertise) for Parry.

I recently recieved a Mjolner's Runestone. My question is simple. Is it worth stacking grim toll and mjolner's? When they both proc, it brings my armor pen way above 100%, which seems like a waste of itemization.

Second question... I've heard a lot of rogues discuss gemming armor pen. My spreadsheet shows it slightly lower than agi. Is it still worth it, and is my spreadsheet factoring in arp in terms of when my mjolner's/grim toll proc individually from eachother?

Thanks!

See I have most of the arp offpieces as well. I'm missing only a few. I may try runestone/greatness, because right now i'm at around 430 hit. It's a bit excessive :P

How accurate are the rawr modules for combat and mutilate?

I'm attempting to evaluate rogue recruits for both combat and mutilate.

I'm using the following setup:

Combat: CPG: SS, 5: SnD, 5: rupture, MH: Deadly, OH: Wound
Mutilate: CPG: Mut, 5: Envenom, 5: rupture, MH: Deadly, OH: Instant

Full Raid Buffs for both.

I then compare performance on actual boss fights to predicted rawr dps, as a percentage.

For example:

Rogue A1: Combat: Actual DPS: 5500 IC hard attempts, Rawr: 8200 - 67% predicted performance
Rogue A2: Combat: Actual DPS: 4300 IC med attempts, Rawr: 7100 - 60% predicted performance

Rogue B1: Mutilate: Actual DPS: 5100 IC hard attempts, Rawr: 6100 - 73% predicted performance
Rogue B2: Mutilate: Actual DPS: 3700 IC med attempts, Rawr: 5000 - 73% predicted performance

------------

My current raiding rogues are A1 and B1. I'm considering recruiting A2 and B2 for backup/bench spots and to gear them out. Rogue B2 performed just as well as B1, but A2 is subpar compared to A1, correct?

Obviously awareness, attendance, character, dedication, etc. apply. But assuming all those are fine, is this methodology a realistic way to evaluate rogue performance?

PS> hard attempt logs: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
med attempt logs: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I would personally say no, it is not a good way to measure performace. Many different factors can take place during combat, espcecially in Ulduar, for example XT-002 bombs, Hot Pot at Ignis and constrictors and fears at Yogg. All these factors can effect performance and DPS. Another factor to consider is that everyone plays to their own particular play style, and thus you cannot force people to use a particular rotation, which refrenced with the above can be thrown out of the window with an interupting event. Rogues will tend to fluctuate up and down the metres depending on the fight and how lucky they are with lack of interuption to DPS time.

Overall it seems you are creating alot of work for yourself where you can see with logs alone and general attitude in raid if your recruits / current raiders perform well or not. If one of your rogues is persistantly low on DPS and using logs you can see he is doing (for example) 10% less sinister strikes / mutilates than another rogue with no aparent reason why, you would have evidence and grounds to question said rogues performance and ability.

So, I'll level with you - my initial response to your question was "wait, there's a Rawr.Rogue module?" - which I suppose is sort of an answer in it's own right. The rogue community as a whole has not adopted Rawr as a significant tool in our theorycrafting arsenal - not that it doesn't get used, but it's certainly not the most widely used or most trusted tool available.

In terms of assessing rogues on IC - particularly IC Hard - raw DPS is really just a bad way of doing business. From a practical perspective on IC Hard, there's really only two things that matter from a rogue's perspective (beyond the obvious points about not dying and the like): DPS on Steelbreaker and interrupts on Stormcaller. DPS on Runemaster and Stormcaller is certainly admirable, but I'd take a rogue who did 5% more damage on Steelbreaker over one who was 5% higher on the other two phases any day of the week.

So, long story short: I suspect you're not going to find too many people in the rogue community willing to vouch for the accuracy of Rawr, and raw DPS on IC Hard is a relatively poor measure of assessment in the first place. So while the approach you propose is probably not the worst way of assessing rogue performance, there are clearly better ways as well.

Hello,

I'm a mutilate rogue, currently Raiding Ulduar 10man. (3.4k ap, 37% crit, exp capped)

For now I use Fury of the Five Flights + Mirror of Truth as trinkets; as I don't have "fast" access to any drop, I had the occasion to put my hands on a Darkmoon card: Greatness, so I purchased it.

Now, from the spreadsheet and from their EP value my two old trinkets are pretty near: any suggestion on what I should put on in combo with the drakmoon card?

Right. Steelbreaker and Razor were the only two bosses I had to evaluate the two new recruits. Luckily, I can use WoL and double-check their Steelbreaker only dps. Thanks for the tip.

My question was more in regards to general methodology for assessing different gearing levels. Needless to say, Rawr is easier to learn, import armories for, and use than spreadsheets ... especially when I need it to evaluate recruits of many different classes (not limited to rogues). It's difficult to assess whether a rogue is performing when they come in with a mix of naxx10/25 gear and titansteel shankers or LPC's, when you have regular rogues decked out in Uld25 gear.

I guess it's time to learn combat and mut spreadsheets. ugh. The things I do as a guild leader.

I eventually found a link to the Rawr models page: Rawr - Home
Rogues are in fact unsupported and very "under development."

Your rogues shouldn't be mutilate, at least as long as you're still progressing in ulduar.

Although if your mutilate rogue is outperforming the combat ones, then you might have bigger problems than spreadsheets.

I think that's overstating the case pretty severely, honestly. Like, Combat is better for more fights in Ulduar, but Mutilate isn't too far behind on most fights and does win on some. So assuming access to all gear in the game, yes, most rogues should probably be combat, the reality of gearing is that for most guilds it makes sense to run at least 1 mutilate rogue.

So I Experimented a little bit with SimCraft and the result was that Mongoose (MH) Executioner (OH) is about 40-60DPS stronger than Dual Mongoose.



As you see Executioner has way more uptime in the Graph. Anybody has an how this comes?
And why does it show Mongoose_MH and Mongoose_OH?

edit:

did this with my own profile and with the default profile Rogue_T7_51_13_07.simcraft

edit2: I experimented a little bit more and i think simcraft doesn't works with 2 diffrent enchants.

Mongoose buffs from each weapon do not overlap, which is why they are tracked via _MH and _OH. What troubles me is seeing both Mongoose OH/MH -and- Executioner. I'll find/fix it later today.

EDIT: Fixed in r2770. It will be in the next release. For now, just don't mix your weapon enchants.

Yes this makes me wondering to and i think this is where the 40-60dps come from. Dual Mongoose + Executioner.