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Old 11/30/08, 6:42 AM   #326
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Drumaddikk View Post
The Imp FF from Druids is nerfed right? So we cant add that to the "Hit Cap"?
Poison hit cap yes. Physical hit cap no.

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Old 11/30/08, 1:36 PM   #327
PartNinja
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Skullcrusher
I couldnt find a definitive answer and need some clarification.

For 15-51-5 combat raiding specs, generally speaking should one still just reach the 315 poison hit cap then stack the other stats like mut?

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Old 11/30/08, 2:21 PM   #328
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by PartNinja View Post
I couldnt find a definitive answer and need some clarification.

For 15-51-5 combat raiding specs, generally speaking should one still just reach the 315 poison hit cap then stack the other stats like mut?
Generally speaking. No. You gear up with the best gear you can obtain regardless of the amount of hit you wind up at. Use a spreadsheet to better figure out what gear is better.

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Old 11/30/08, 4:27 PM   #329
Nerio
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Bleeding Hollow
I have a question that I'm not sure can be modeled properly in the current spread sheets.

Would it be more advantageous during a bloodlust/haste pot (or both) to just use a 4+ envenom (cttc) spam cycle as mutilate? I've just been wondering lately if having the envenom buff up as much as possible during times of increased haste would be more beneficial. Maybe a 4+e/4+r/4+e would be even better.

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Old 12/01/08, 2:16 AM   #330
Uthilas
Banned
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Azgalor
I just picked up twilight mist from 25 man naxx. I was dual wielding paper cutters before i got that. I am the standard mutilate pve spec and i was curious.

Where should i put this dagger?

In the main hand or off hand?

And, Which poison on what weapon?

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Old 12/01/08, 3:01 AM   #331
xvvx01
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Uthilas View Post
I just picked up twilight mist from 25 man naxx. I was dual wielding paper cutters before i got that. I am the standard mutilate pve spec and i was curious.

Where should i put this dagger?

In the main hand or off hand?

And, Which poison on what weapon?
I would put it on the offhand w/ Instant on MH and Deadly on OH.

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Old 12/01/08, 3:35 AM   #332
Uthilas
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Azgalor
are u sure? even with the amazing top end dmg of twilight mist, You think it should go in OH?

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Old 12/01/08, 3:38 AM   #333
Neto-
Bald Bull
 
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
I think you should read more before posting. Your very same question was asked multiple times previously.

we said simple questions, not stupid questions (which have no place on these forums). You're still expected to make a reasonable effort to find the answer yourself by searching and reading the threads and making use of spreadsheets and any other tools that may be available.

Last edited by Neto- : 12/01/08 at 3:47 AM.

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 12/01/08, 4:37 AM   #334
Marvie
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Draenor
Here's one I'm somewhat curious about.

I have full Sunwell T6 so I'm able to go 4/4 (T6/T7).

At what point would it be beneficial to break the 4pc T6 for a non-set piece assuming I have the 4/4?

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Old 12/01/08, 4:52 AM   #335
Antiarc
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Human Rogue
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
1. Difference is probably not much on trash. Maybe go with Wound and Instant if you want more burst
Assuming combat, why would you use Instant at all? If you're Mutilate, why would you use Wound at all?

I've been running dual wound; Deadly theorycrafts out better, but if you look at WWS parses, Wound consistently does more damage both in aggregate, and on single bosses (Patchwerk, I'm looking at you). I'd love to get opinions on this; I know it theorycrafts out wrong, but it's difficult to argue with the raw numbers.

Edit: So you don't have to dig through WWSes, results from combat rogues using Wound/Deadly in the top recorded Patchwerk kills:

Wow Web Stats (114k poison damage)
Wow Web Stats (112k poison damage)
Wow Web Stats (133k poison damage)
Wow Web Stats (120k poison damage)

(Average: 119k poison damage)

By means of comparison, here are rogues running dual wound:

Wow Web Stats (146k poison damage)
http://wowwebstats.com/ywl3l4aiz4qp3...6809&a=x2d566f (128k poison damage)
Wow Web Stats (145k poison damage)
Wow Web Stats (125k)

(Average: 136k poison damage)

This is by absolutely no means conclusive, but it raises some rather interesting questions.

I'm going to theorize that it may be one of two factors:

1) The Deadly stack is dropping due to an unlucky RNG streak. If so, it's unlucky enough to consistently affect rogues in world top kills.

2) AP procs and the like are tipping in Wound's favor. I don't know the mechanics on Deadly's damage, but if I had to guess based on how it worked on Netherspite's blue beam, the stack's damage is determined by the rogue's AP at the time of first application. Since this would be early in the fight with few or no AP procs up, this may be a limiting factor in Deadly's DPS potential. Wound would obviously benefit from the rogue's AP at the time of application.

If it's not one of those two, I don't know what to suggest, beyond that something might have been modeled incorrectly.

Last edited by Antiarc : 12/01/08 at 5:07 AM.

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Old 12/01/08, 5:05 AM   #336
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Marvie View Post
Here's one I'm somewhat curious about.

I have full Sunwell T6 so I'm able to go 4/4 (T6/T7).

At what point would it be beneficial to break the 4pc T6 for a non-set piece assuming I have the 4/4?
When there's a sufficient stat gain in pieces to make the dps surpass the set bonus of the 4/4.

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Old 12/01/08, 5:10 AM   #337
Antiarc
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Human Rogue
 
Cenarion Circle
The answer to "when do I break 4pc T6?" is relatively easy; Sinister Strike does 25% of my damage right now (without the bonus - I've already broken it), so a 6% increase in that is a 1.5% damage increase. If breaking my set bonus produces more than a 1.5% damage increase, it's worth breaking. AP is generally a fairly linear increase in DPS; If I have 3000 AP and am using Greed, then 1.5% of my 3000 AP + weapon DPS AP equivalent (143.5 DPS * 14 AP/DPS = 2002 AP) is about 75 AP. That's not very hard to come up with given the stats on the new gear. This is very ballpark, but ballpark's really what people are wanting.

The inevitable followup is "when do I break 2pc T6?", to which the answer is "When the stats gained are worth 163 haste rating or more" - at current EP levels, that's about 114 agility. Convert into various other stats as you will.

Edit: Fixed math because it's late and I'm stupid.

Last edited by Antiarc : 12/01/08 at 5:21 AM.

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Old 12/01/08, 5:25 AM   #338
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Antiarc View Post
Assuming combat, why would you use Instant at all? If you're Mutilate, why would you use Wound at all?.
The question was about trash, the build is (I assume) Mutilate. In that case, mobs die before DP can tick, and you often won't get an Envenom off either, so DP is a flat waste. Your choices are IP/IP or IP/WP. IP is more poison DPS. WP is more Mutilate DPS, and also applies the raid debuff if you're the one keeping it up - probably a factor in 10-mans. Neither is obviously the right or wrong choice.

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Old 12/01/08, 5:48 AM   #339
Chinkueda
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Troll Rogue
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Antiarc View Post
<<skipped>>

This is by absolutely no means conclusive, but it raises some rather interesting questions.

I'm going to theorize that it may be one of two factors:

1) The Deadly stack is dropping due to an unlucky RNG streak. If so, it's unlucky enough to consistently affect rogues in world top kills.

2) AP procs and the like are tipping in Wound's favor. I don't know the mechanics on Deadly's damage, but if I had to guess based on how it worked on Netherspite's blue beam, the stack's damage is determined by the rogue's AP at the time of first application. Since this would be early in the fight with few or no AP procs up, this may be a limiting factor in Deadly's DPS potential. Wound would obviously benefit from the rogue's AP at the time of application.

If it's not one of those two, I don't know what to suggest, beyond that something might have been modeled incorrectly.
Very interesting observations.
Talking about 2) I don't think you are right.
Lets take Wow Web Stats for example. Assuming average rogue AP as 6k in the raid, we've got around 323 deadly poison dps in perfect conditions((296 + 0.08*6000)*5/12). As you see, 323 is pretty close to actuall numbers (311dps = 53949/173).
So, as far as I understand, the problem if it really exsits is somewhere around the fact that deadly poison has pretty constant dps through every fight because of stack nature.
Wound poison, on the other hand, having ~471 damage "tick" may crit and scales with weapon speed. Therefore, ignoring hit chance and assuming crit chance as 1.23 multiplier, we need weapon with the following speed to overcome dealy poison = (471 * 0.5 * 1.23) /311 = 0.93. Looks reachable, or close enough)
All numbers in callculations above are pretty rough

Last edited by Chinkueda : 12/01/08 at 6:56 AM.

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Old 12/01/08, 8:38 AM   #340
Neto-
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wut
Gnome Warlock
 
No WoW Account
I just looked at the first two Combat parses, but I see a glaring difference here.

Wow Web Stats vs Wow Web Stats

The Deadly poison parse got 134 swings and 35 Sinister Strikes, versus 192 swings and 49 Sinister Strike. So it isn't really a fair comparison. How the gnome got so many swings? I'd like to know too. I also can't figure out what he was using as finishers - I only see Eviscerate there, and for the amount of swings and Sinister Strikes he must have spent them elsewhere. (No, it is not Expose Armor)

Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty

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Old 12/01/08, 8:48 AM   #341
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Chinkueda View Post
Wound poison, on the other hand, having ~471 damage "tick" may crit and scales with weapon speed. Therefore, ignoring hit chance and assuming crit chance as 1.23 multiplier, we need weapon with the following speed to overcome dealy poison = (471 * 0.5 * 1.23) /311 = 0.93. Looks reachable, or close enough.
If your main hand is hitting that fast in a combat build, you're doing something very wrong, unless you're combat daggers.

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Old 12/01/08, 8:55 AM   #342
Admonish
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Anachronos (EU)
I am wondering how expertise can be valued so high for mutilate builds. Doesn't Quick Recovery make expertise less of an issue?

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Old 12/01/08, 9:13 AM   #343
songster
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Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Admonish View Post
I am wondering how expertise can be valued so high for mutilate builds. Doesn't Quick Recovery make expertise less of an issue?
Short answer: no. Long answer: nooooooo.

Firstly, expertise affects white damage and yellow damage, and quick recovery does nothing for the former. Secondly, with a Mutilate build finishers can be dodged too, meaning it is much more important to cap expertise in a mutilate build than a combat build. Quick recovery mitigates this to an extent, but not greatly.

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Old 12/01/08, 10:19 AM   #344
Chinkueda
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by songster View Post
If your main hand is hitting that fast in a combat build, you're doing something very wrong, unless you're combat daggers.
right. I was talking about offhand, obviously. Sorry I didn't mention that.

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Old 12/01/08, 10:38 AM   #345
shredzy
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Dath'Remar
fixed issue.

Last edited by shredzy : 12/01/08 at 11:55 PM.

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Old 12/01/08, 10:41 AM   #346
Chinkueda
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Neto- View Post
I just looked at the first two Combat parses, but I see a glaring difference here.

Wow Web Stats vs Wow Web Stats

The Deadly poison parse got 134 swings and 35 Sinister Strikes, versus 192 swings and 49 Sinister Strike. So it isn't really a fair comparison. How the gnome got so many swings? I'd like to know too. I also can't figure out what he was using as finishers - I only see Eviscerate there, and for the amount of swings and Sinister Strikes he must have spent them elsewhere. (No, it is not Expose Armor)
If I get it right, wws in Hits column shows none crit hits. Rogue with deadly poison has higher crit and hit in comparing with another one.

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Old 12/01/08, 10:54 AM   #347
Rerox
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Antiarc View Post
The inevitable followup is "when do I break 2pc T6?", to which the answer is "When the stats gained are worth 163 haste rating or more" - at current EP levels, that's about 114 agility. Convert into various other stats as you will.

Interestingly enough, the spreadsheet reports for me about 107 dps gained by "2pc T6" wich is impossible to replace by any 10-man loot currently available (calculated for bracers and belt).

Even with 25-man heroic loot I am not sure if there is a combination of bracers and belts available that really dumps the 2pc T6 by a considerable amount of dps. The only combination I found ([Belt of the Tortured] and [Sinner's Bindings]) nets out only about 15 dps higher than the two Sunwell-T6 items with 2pc bonus.

Seems like we'll all be wearing two pieces of T6 for quite some time.

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Old 12/01/08, 11:25 AM   #348
Hal76
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Ghostlands (EU)
Expose Armour in Mutilate rotation

I was unable to find an answer to this and wonder if anybody could perhaps give me some indication.

I am currently specced Mutilate and do not use Expose Armour at all in my rotation. On any given boss fight, would this provide any worthwhile increase in my DPS, or should I simply continue with envenom and Rupture? I certainly wouldn't want to over complicate things as I'm a fairly new Rogue, prone to mistakes in my rotation.

Thanks

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Old 12/01/08, 11:53 AM   #349
Rerox
Piston Honda
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Hal76 View Post
I am currently specced Mutilate and do not use Expose Armour at all in my rotation. On any given boss fight, would this provide any worthwhile increase in my DPS, or should I simply continue with envenom and Rupture?
If you have a Prot Warrior as Tank, you don't have to use Expose Armor, since it doesn't stack.
If you have a Feral or Prot Paladin (and no Off-Warrior) in your raid/group, Expose Armor is a significant increase in dps and you should use it.

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Old 12/01/08, 11:58 AM   #350
Admonish
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Anachronos (EU)
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Short answer: no. Long answer: nooooooo.

Firstly, expertise affects white damage and yellow damage, and quick recovery does nothing for the former. Secondly, with a Mutilate build finishers can be dodged too, meaning it is much more important to cap expertise in a mutilate build than a combat build. Quick recovery mitigates this to an extent, but not greatly.
I have been looking for quite some time for any discussion of this in the other threads but not found anything. It does seem like this needs a little more justification considering you spend far more of your energy building CP than throwing finishers in a combat spec. My point was mainly that it seems strange that a mutilate spec values it higher than a combat spec.

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