I can understand where the 2 piece tier 8 bonus would be nice on a fight like Thorim for energy. But lets take the set bonus out of play here and just look at the damage aspect to Wounding/Deadly vs. Wounding/Wounding. Now with PPM mechanics built in to some of our poisons and Deadly getting a damage boost -- Does Wound/Deadly do more damage than Wound/Wound for a Combat Sword Rogue in a 5 minute fight? (with no set bonuses involved)

Yes. Deadly poison does a lot of damage.

There exists an itemization level where wound poison will catch up with deadly poison for single-target DPS. We have not reached that itemization level. It is unclear whether or not we will before the end of the expansion. For the moment, set bonus or no set bonus, Deadly is the way to go on any target that you're going to be DPSing for a significant amount of time.

Edit: for example, with my current crit, AP, and hit, fully raid buffed, I'd need on the order of 800 haste rating before Wound Poison would catch up. Compare this to my actual value of 266. As we get more crit and hit in future tiers this haste breakpoint may come within reach, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

What if you have very limited uptime on targets, say on Yogg, would wound poison be better than deadly them disregarding the brain in phase 2?

Obviously if your time on target is limited, as in Yogg Saron phase 3 or Thorim arena, wound poison easily pulls ahead of deadly poison. Even if you are mutilate spec, you will do more damage if you put double instant and eviscerate instead of envenom. Same is true for rupture versus eviscerate. When mobs die within 2-3 seconds, you should definitely use eviscerate instead of applying a rupture dot.

If you are only attacking one target at a time and are not using FOK, have a fast offhand with wound poison on it (instant if you are mutilate spec). If you use FOK, a slow offhand dagger with wound poison is advantageous because the increase in FOK damage should outweigh the extra combat potency procs from offhand autoattacks.

hello, i been on this site for a long time but first time posting. i have to ask a simple question :P

the problem i have is with a chest peice, i currently have Tunic of Indulgence from naxx 25, well being unlucky in teir drops i have gotten Winter's Icy Embrace from hodir 25 man. now shadowpanter says this item is a upgrade and it being from 25 uld and higher i level you would think that it is. however i lose 5ap 3% crit and good bit of hit. how can the uldar peice be such a upgrade when my total numbers go down. or am i right in thinking the uldar chest is not a upgrade in total dps? i have a combat build but i am now raiding mutilate.

thank you for any help on this.

but isnt expertise usless after 27/27 ? never did understand this stat

You're profile links to a DK, you gave very little information, the cap is actually 26 (214 rating), Feist isn't psychic, and he may be correct anyway. The only way to be sure is to use a spreadsheet which is what you should have done in the first place.

I can see that if you are using FoK instant would be better in a mutilate spec, but if you are using mutilate, is instant poison better than wound, given that you would lose out on the 20% bonus to mutilate from not having a poison on your target?

It's a good point, but remember: It doesn't have to be your poison for Mutilate to benefit.

I've been reading these forums every day for the past few months and haven't seen anything on it, so forgive me if the math has been done before, but has anyone calculated the necessary up time on a target for wound/deadly to out preform wound/wound with a combat spec, mostly irrelevant in current content, but it would definitely be a good statistic to have available.

If the rogues don't hold back it is simply the average uptime of TotT.

6 Secons every 30 Seconds equals 20 % uptime. 15 % x 0.2 = 3 % dps increase.

I think what grindfreak is asking is if that 3% DPS increase is worth the energy/GCD associated with using tricks every thirty seconds. I've heard mixed results personally. Any input?

There shouldn't be any problem regarding the GCD since Rogues are Energy capped, not GCD capped.

To accurately calculate if it is worth it or not you need to know your exact energy to damage conversion rate.

If your rogue colleague does 6500 dps, using TotT would gain him 0.15 x 6 x 6500 = 5850 damage every 30 seconds

This means you have to convert your 15 Energy into 5850 or more damage to not make it worth. Seeing as my spreadsheet shows an average Mutilate of 6017.48 with the cost of 52.25 (yes t7 4pc) I would convert these 15 energy into 15/52.25 x 6017.48 = 1727.61 damage. the number should be higher because energy conversation is better with envenom and rupture. Nevertheless I think this shows the vast difference in raid damage gained from those 15 energy.

Even when using all the energy for envenom and saying envenom hits for an average 10,000 damage the damage gained would be 4285.71

edit: for clarification.

That answers my earlier questions.

All I'm wondering about now is if there is a situation where the tricks of the trade glyph outweighs either the rupture or killing spree glyphs (except for an obvious fight like kologarn) dps wise.

Yes.

This is actually a slightly different question than the one I answered - how *long* a fight needs to be for wound poison to pass deadly, as opposed to how much gear it takes for wound to pass deadly in an indefinite fight. My instinct is that the answer is "not very long", based on the rate of DP stacking and 2/5 T8 set bonus; however, I admit I haven't run the numbers on it so can't totally swear that that's the case.

But, as a ballpark figure, Deadly is perhaps 15-20% ahead even neglecting the set bonus in an indefinite fight; getting a full stack takes 10-15 seconds. Thus, in order for Deadly to lose 1/6th of it's value from rampup, the fight would need to be under 40 seconds or so. Which certainly happens on trash, but is fairly rare on bosses.

Also note that this assumes the mob *dies* after 40 seconds - if your stack can tick off (i.e., Yogg mind phase), that's an advantage for Deadly Poison; and when you factor in the set bonus...

Basically, this is a very rough estimate, but I don't see it's worth using double WP in most cases outside of trash pulls. You can make a case for Yogg on some difficulty modes, but outside of that I think DP wins throughout.

I was not able to quantify it yet, but just throwing it out there as a question. I can understand that at certain levels of haste, hit and crit, which only benefit wound poison and not deadly poison, the wound poison will pull ahead of deadly poison. Based on Aldriana's calculations, holding other things constant, it might take as much as 800 haste for that to happen. But perhaps at an earlier level of gear it might be a dps increase to swap out the offhand with deadly poison for the same offhand with wound poison on it.

Basically the model is as follows. As soon as 5th stack of deadly is reapplied, swap the offhands, thus swapping deadly for wound poison. Use the latter for a certain amount of time (denote it as n seconds). Then swap the poisons again. If you are lucky, in the time left before the deadly poison runs out, it will be reapplied (the probability of that depends on n). Alternatively, deadly poison stacks will drop and you will have to reapply it and suffer the corresponding damage loss.

As a result of swaps and swing resets, you will lose white damage, but you will gain wound poison damage, and there will also be a potential cost of losing deadly poison that is a function of n. At this point this is purely theoretical, but I think it could provide a dps increase at some reasonable values of haste, hit and crit.

I'm going to go with "no" on that idea. I hacked the calculations into my spreadsheet, and here's what I come up with:

Each weapon swap costs you, on average, half an attack with each of MH and OH - for me, this works out to around 1592 damage. However, since you need to swap back after to refresh DP, you lose, basically, a full swing with each weapon, for a total of 3184 damage.

An average Wound Poison proc does just shy of 680 damage; thus, to make up just the damage loss from weapon swapping requires 4.69 poison procs. With my hit, expertise and haste, it takes 6.78 seconds of autoattack to see that many poison procs. As such, we need to stay swapped to the WP weapon for at least this amount of time just to break even. To get an actual damage increase, we'd want it to be longer. Lets say we want to get an extra second of wound poison damage out of this swap, so we hold it for 7.78 seconds. Moreover, it is impractical to swap the instant of a refresh - we need to allow a couple of a tenths of a second for reaction time and latency.

Thus, we are looking at swapping a couple of tenths of a second after the DP refresh, 7.78 seconds DPSing with Wound poison, and then switching back - thus, the swap back occurs about 8 seconds after the refresh.

Now, best case, a DP refresh gives 12 seconds of duration. But in reality, it only gives 4 ticks - this means that, on average, we only gain 10.5 seconds from a refresh. Thus, if we stay swapped for 8 seconds, we have at best 4 seconds - and typically more like 2.5 seconds - to refresh DP before our stack drops. Lets assume we pick longish refreshes to do this on - i.e., rather than swapping every time we refresh, we wait for particularly long refreshes, and thus squeeze out, say, 11.5 second refreshes on average. We thus get 3.5 seconds to refresh at the end.

Well, the odds that DP refreshes in 3.5 seconds - with my gear - are about 83%. Thus, one time in 6 we try this, DP drops entirely, costing us around 3053 damage; thus, we lose (on average) 527 damage to DP drops every time we try this. And how much damage did we gain? Well, we got one second of Wound Poison autoattack damage as profit, which average... 470 damage. Thus, this swap costs us 57 damage on average.

In short? With any reasonable set of parameters I try, I show it as a DPS loss. I'd be willing to believe that if you timed it exactly rate and chose good DP refreshes to do this, and had procs up, and so forth, you might be able to squeeze out a double-digit damage increase if you timed it perfectly... but if you screwed it up at all, you're back to losing damage again. So it just strikes me as way to much time, effort, hassle, and risk for not nearly enough benefit to be worthwhile.

Interesting that the debate over Wound/Wound vs. Wound/DP is hot and heavy here on the forums. On my realm, the rogues all seems to be contentious. I was told by one rogue that with 18/51/2, Wound/Wound outdamaged Wound/Deadly.

I performed the following layman's testing on the Heroic Target Dummy in IF:

- 15 minutes with each poison setup
- No cooldowns were used
- No buffs were applied
- Used same equipment and talent spec for both tests, just swapped poisons.
- I literally started the attack and walked away for 15 minutes for each test.

Results (from auto-attack):

Wound/Wound
1431.9 DPS over 15 minutes

Wound/Deadly
1603.4 DPS over 15 minutes

I presume that more in-depth analysis and number-crunching by the experts would show the same results. Also, the spreadsheets all show the same basic results -- Wound/Wound doesn't outperform Wound/Deadly for combat rogues based on the current in-game mechanic.

Over an extended period Deadly is clearly superior to wound at any currently reasonable stat level. That is not in question at all.

That said a target dummy test is very inconclusive, as Deadly and Wound poisons scale vary differently from raid buffs.

What has been in question is how short a fight on a single target would need to be in order for wound/wound to be better.

On that note I was wondering if in a fight like firefighter, with periods of downtime on the boss (P1/P4) would Wound/Wound be Superior for those phases, given the probability that your deadly stack could fall off?

Likely not. I remember Aldriana calculating that 40 seconds duration on target is roughly the point at which DP overtakes WP. On a fight like Mimiron, you spend some time off target, but DP will continue to tick during that time, and the odds that you will spend even 6 seconds off target per Shock Blast are pretty slim, so there is a good chance that DP (which ticks lasts for 12) won't fall off in the time off target.