18/51/2 has nothing in the talent tree that would favor wound poison over deadly poison. Vile poisons that you get with that spec affects both poison types equally.
I'm going to go with "no" on that idea. I hacked the calculations into my spreadsheet, and here's what I come up with:
Each weapon swap costs you, on average, half an attack with each of MH and OH - for me, this works out to around 1592 damage. However, since you need to swap back after to refresh DP, you lose, basically, a full swing with each weapon, for a total of 3184 damage.
An average Wound Poison proc does just shy of 680 damage; thus, to make up just the damage loss from weapon swapping requires 4.69 poison procs. With my hit, expertise and haste, it takes 6.78 seconds of autoattack to see that many poison procs. As such, we need to stay swapped to the WP weapon for at least this amount of time just to break even. To get an actual damage increase, we'd want it to be longer. Lets say we want to get an extra second of wound poison damage out of this swap, so we hold it for 7.78 seconds. Moreover, it is impractical to swap the instant of a refresh - we need to allow a couple of a tenths of a second for reaction time and latency.
Thus, we are looking at swapping a couple of tenths of a second after the DP refresh, 7.78 seconds DPSing with Wound poison, and then switching back - thus, the swap back occurs about 8 seconds after the refresh.
Now, best case, a DP refresh gives 12 seconds of duration. But in reality, it only gives 4 ticks - this means that, on average, we only gain 10.5 seconds from a refresh. Thus, if we stay swapped for 8 seconds, we have at best 4 seconds - and typically more like 2.5 seconds - to refresh DP before our stack drops. Lets assume we pick longish refreshes to do this on - i.e., rather than swapping every time we refresh, we wait for particularly long refreshes, and thus squeeze out, say, 11.5 second refreshes on average. We thus get 3.5 seconds to refresh at the end.
Well, the odds that DP refreshes in 3.5 seconds - with my gear - are about 83%. Thus, one time in 6 we try this, DP drops entirely, costing us around 3053 damage; thus, we lose (on average) 527 damage to DP drops every time we try this. And how much damage did we gain? Well, we got one second of Wound Poison autoattack damage as profit, which average... 470 damage. Thus, this swap costs us 57 damage on average.
In short? With any reasonable set of parameters I try, I show it as a DPS loss. I'd be willing to believe that if you timed it exactly rate and chose good DP refreshes to do this, and had procs up, and so forth, you might be able to squeeze out a double-digit damage increase if you timed it perfectly... but if you screwed it up at all, you're back to losing damage again. So it just strikes me as way to much time, effort, hassle, and risk for not nearly enough benefit to be worthwhile.
Thanks for doing the math. Just a couple questions, am I right to say that during heroism wound poison damage would be 1.3 times higher, or in your calculations, it will be (3184+470)*1.3=4750. That compared to 3184+527=3711 is a 1039 damage gain. In fact the gain is even slightly higher because with that much more haste the average loss of damage due to dropping deadly poison is going to be lower.
So what we have is about 1050 damage gain, over 12 seconds of deadly poison refresh or 87.5 dps. You already took into account some human factor by adding on some time for swapping and reaction time, but let's say we take another second out of wound poison. Then the damage gain would be 1050-470*1.3=439, and that's only a lower bound because if you extend deadly poison uptime at the end, it reduces the chance it will drop. Perhaps you can give more accurate calculations since you have them done before when you calculated the 83% probability. Either way, even 439 damage is more than 36 dps increase. So would you say this strategy is worth it at least during heroism and perhaps during Comet's Trail proc too?
I'm really new to the rogue class, leveling one and then starting to read AJ posts to know a little more and prepare my stuff.
I just have a very simple question, after reading the Q&A about combat spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In the Q&A it's told that combat daggers is not viable anymore, so why 5pts in close quarters combat if we play with swords/mace/whatever ?
I'm really new to the rogue class, leveling one and then starting to read AJ posts to know a little more and prepare my stuff.
I just have a very simple question, after reading the Q&A about combat spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In the Q&A it's told that combat daggers is not viable anymore, so why 5pts in close quarters combat if we play with swords/mace/whatever ?
Simple Questions requires simple answers, we use a slow Fist wep in MH and a fast dagger in OH, both get the 5% crit from Close Quarters Combat.
I was thinking that sword was the preferred weapon for combat spec
It depends on your definition of preferred. In terms of which MH weapon yields the highest dps, [Golden Saronite Dragon] is the only 188,1 dps combat spec viable MH weapon obtainable through PVE play, and is currently BIS for a combat specced rogue, whereas [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm] as yet remains the best sword a combat rogue can get.
Further information about BIS items for combat rogues can be found here.
Gemming arpen currently puts me about 5 dps ahead of gemming agi. (The spreadsheets here each put arpen very slightly ahead) This is with standard 15-51-5 cqc combat. Obviously this difference is pretty small, so this leads me to a few thoughts/questions.
Will fok hit harder with arpen or agi? I'd like to count poison here as part of the damage. Fok damage matters on quite a few boss fights. It seems like this would put agi ahead since there is some scaling with poison damage.
I'm guessing the common argument would be to gem agi for the 'survival.' However, I'm not sure the spreadsheet(s) are accounting for cooldown management. I'm assuming a killing spree with a mjolnir runestone proc + arpen gems hits WAY harder than a killing spree with a runestone proc + agi gems. Maybe I'm wrong.
There's no simple answer to that question as it's influenced by a number of variables aside from your ArPen and Agi. At any rate, it's my opinion that the use of Fan of Knives is far too situational to be a decisive factor when figuring out how to gem your gear. My advice would be to trust the available spreadsheets.
I've got a question, I tried to get the answer to this by using the spreadsheet but I keep getting a problem with it saying no sustainable cycle or something. Which is the best combat spec to use with 4 piece T8? Lethality (15/51/5) or Serrated Blades (7/51/13)? With Lethality and my current gear I get 6801 DPS, but with Serrated Blades it won't let me put in a combo point rotation, so the numbers are skewed lower as a result. Has anyone done off-spreadsheet testing on these two specs to find out which works better with the 4 piece bonus?
Trying to determine which is better on a target dummy is a fruitless endeavor and will only earn you scorn. The target dummies have zero debuffs on them except the ones you provide and you have zero raid buffs except what you can provide. It's not even close to what you'd experience in a raid.
Recount's flagging of sword spec is inaccurate anyway, so attributing only 2.8% of your dps to it is a bit misleading.
"My DPS seems to have dropped on an ulduar run" isn't very conclusive; were you missing a buff? Debuff? Did you mess up/play worse? Were you assigned to specific "other" duties? Were your kills overall slower (dropping everyone's dps too)?.
The closest thing we have to an accurate comparison between specs/gear is to use a spreadsheet.
Is it me or does Sword specc do less damage compared to Fist specc.
Not really, no. Presupposing same quality weapons, CQC and SS are very close to each other in terms of dps. However, considering the weapons you've linked, you should do well more damage with SS.
Originally Posted by Phriz
After some target dummy bashing, i found out that Melee (Sword Specialization) only gives me 2.8% more dps.
Now, I may misunderstand what you acutally mean by that, but just to clearify, this merely indicates that the SS talent makes up for 2,8% of you total damage done. Not that SS flat out increases your damage by 2,8% compared to other specs, using other weapons.
One of many reasons you're doing less dps in Ulduar compared to earlier (I assume you mean Naxx) could be that Ulduar bosses are much more complex than their Naxx counterparts, often requiring you to move around alot more rather than remaining completely stationary, like in Patchwerk type encounters.
I've got a question, I tried to get the answer to this by using the spreadsheet but I keep getting a problem with it saying no sustainable cycle or something. Which is the best combat spec to use with 4 piece T8? Lethality (15/51/5) or Serrated Blades (7/51/13)? With Lethality and my current gear I get 6801 DPS, but with Serrated Blades it won't let me put in a combo point rotation, so the numbers are skewed lower as a result. Has anyone done off-spreadsheet testing on these two specs to find out which works better with the 4 piece bonus?
You do not want to spec into Serrated Blades as Combat, even with the 4pc T8 bonus.
So i'm guessing this is the general census for everyone? Would like more input on this from others as well, if possible. Not saying I discount you in any way, but a lot of people have different play styles so some people might have direct comparisons. Unfortunately in this case the spreadsheet data isn't conclusive. I ask because a Rogue in my guild said it was good but now I got a completely different opinion so they contradict each other. That is why I am looking for a bit more input. I also would like to take into account which is better damage as well.
All I'm wondering about now is if there is a situation where the tricks of the trade glyph outweighs either the rupture or killing spree glyphs (except for an obvious fight like kologarn) dps wise.
I'm interested in this as well.
My basic calculations for this would be, that the target receives a 15% damage boost for 4 out of 30 seconds, which results in a 15% * 4 / 30 = 2% overall damage gain.
If this is correct, then the actual raid dps gain of this glyph would be the following depending on the targets dps:
7000: 140dps
6500: 130dps
6000: 120dps
My rupture glyph is worth 125dps and my KS glyph is worth 116dps according to Aldriana's spreadsheet. I have TotT glyphed over rupture for quite some time now, but I didn't do any math on it.
Are these calcs correct ? Please correct me if that is not the case, I don't want to spread nonsense in this place.
So i'm guessing this is the general census for everyone? Would like more input on this from others as well, if possible.
All relevant theorycraft I've come across by way of these forums, along with the very limited testing I've carried out myself, supports 15/51/1 as being a cut above 7/51/13 in terms of dps.
All relevant theorycraft I've come across by way of these forums, along with the very limited testing I've carried out myself, supports 15/51/1 as being a cut above 7/51/13 in terms of dps.
Well in this case, it is pertaining to the 4 piece T8 bonus, though, I'm assuming your testing also included the 4pc bonus?
The HAT spec (with a few tweaks; Blood Spatter is better than Aggression for 4pt8) mav posted is still viable, and even optimal if you have a half decent group.
You'll find Mavanas' spreadsheet actually does quite a good job modelling HAT DPS, at least in my experience, and the availability of the addon "Tophat" helps in assembling groups of good critters.
Strictly speaking, HAT gets much better in 3.2, as patch notes list periodic damage crits as being able to trigger HaT (a huge boost to Crits per second, especially from rogues!), but HAT will continue to suffer from the disadvantages it has on learning content; dead group members etc.
07/19/09, 12:13 PM
Similar Threads
