Elitist Jerks Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

 03/17/09, 9:56 PM #2161 paramourn Glass Joe   paramourn Blood Elf Rogue   Firetree Understandable, but if this is the case why would I be doing consistently better on the dummies by 50-100 dps. (Im not disagreeing with you) just not sure why it would be any different in a raid setting? Is the difference in dps minimal? or significant? With my offhand damage being 75% of weapon damage does that effect my poisons whatsoever? Also the fact I'm hit (poison) capped....How does "improved poisons" tie into this....From what I understand this is a seperate variable from "hit" cap. Or do I not need as much hit/ as much points in that talent....Thanks for reading.
03/17/09, 11:27 PM   #2162
saedo
King Hippo

Night Elf Rogue

Gorgonnash
 Originally Posted by paramourn Understandable, but if this is the case why would I be doing consistently better on the dummies by 50-100 dps. (Im not disagreeing with you) just not sure why it would be any different in a raid setting? Is the difference in dps minimal? or significant? With my offhand damage being 75% of weapon damage does that effect my poisons whatsoever? Also the fact I'm hit (poison) capped....How does "improved poisons" tie into this....From what I understand this is a seperate variable from "hit" cap. Or do I not need as much hit/ as much points in that talent....Thanks for reading.

More AP would make IP hit harder. More crit would make IP hit harder (DP don't crit). More haste would proc IP more. etc, etc.

Improved poisons increase proc rate, not hit rate.

Spell hit cap is 17%. -5% if you're spec'd into Precision. -3% if you have Misery or Imp FF. -1% if you have a Draenei. So down to 8% spell hit for the cap if you have all of the above.

Last edited by saedo : 03/18/09 at 3:28 AM.

 03/18/09, 3:11 AM #2163 paramourn Glass Joe   paramourn Blood Elf Rogue   Firetree Thank you so much man....all makes total sense. Just one last question about the poisons....how do i know how to gauge poison procs. For the longest time I thought, if i was "poison capped" it landed a poison every swing. As I'm writing this right now, this doesn't sound correct =) To clarify.......proc is how many times my poisons "decide" ok I'm going to attempt to land on the target....spell hit is...once they have decided to proc...this is my chance to actually land them? Is there any other way to improve "proc" speed of my instant poisons etc besides "improved poisons". I apologize sincerely if this is sounding noobish.....I consider myself a knowledgeable rogue and have studied etc all aspects of my class...but always was a bit hazy on this subject. Being subtlety for awhile..poison was important but not like mutilate builds.
03/18/09, 3:33 AM   #2164
saedo
King Hippo

Night Elf Rogue

Gorgonnash
 Originally Posted by paramourn Thank you so much man....all makes total sense. Just one last question about the poisons....how do i know how to gauge poison procs. For the longest time I thought, if i was "poison capped" it landed a poison every swing. As I'm writing this right now, this doesn't sound correct =) To clarify.......proc is how many times my poisons "decide" ok I'm going to attempt to land on the target....spell hit is...once they have decided to proc...this is my chance to actually land them? Is there any other way to improve "proc" speed of my instant poisons etc besides "improved poisons". I apologize sincerely if this is sounding noobish.....I consider myself a knowledgeable rogue and have studied etc all aspects of my class...but always was a bit hazy on this subject. Being subtlety for awhile..poison was important but not like mutilate builds.
Yea. Every swing you do has a chance to proc a poison. Every proc of a poison will then go through the spell hit mechanics of whether it resists or not.

The only way to improve the proc itself is that improved poisons talent. The only other way to get more procs is to increase the swings/attacks that can proc it. That's why main handing is better since it can proc off finishers, which are main hand attacks.

 03/18/09, 9:15 AM #2165 Dangasaur Glass Joe   Styrene Undead Rogue   Gurubashi Can someone provide an equation or link that determines rogue weapon speed? Something that takes into consideration flat % talents such as the new LR as well as flat % abilities like S&D and Blade Flurry. I've searched but have only found information relevant to TBC. I assumed everything is additive but I then read some conflicting information.
03/18/09, 10:02 AM   #2166
PessimiStick
Piston Honda

Orc Rogue

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Dangasaur Can someone provide an equation or link that determines rogue weapon speed? Something that takes into consideration flat % talents such as the new LR as well as flat % abilities like S&D and Blade Flurry. I've searched but have only found information relevant to TBC. I assumed everything is additive but I then read some conflicting information.
Base_Speed / (1 + Haste1) * (1 + Haste2) * (1 + Haste3) * (1+ (SUM(Haste_Rating)) / 32.79 / 100)) = Final_Speed

Edit: Fixed, thanks Drum. =p

Last edited by PessimiStick : 03/18/09 at 10:15 AM.

 03/18/09, 10:09 AM #2167 Loot Piston Honda   Wipe Human Priest   Sporeggar (EU) Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (first place to look?) have that formula too (granted you can replace the lvl70 rating to % number with lvl 80 one which is also on the same page
03/18/09, 10:12 AM   #2168
drumbum
King Hippo

Human Rogue

Sargeras
 Originally Posted by PessimiStick Base_Speed / (1 + Haste1) * (1 + Haste2) * (1 + Haste3) * (1+ (SUM(Haste_Rating)) / 32.79)) = Final_Speed
Close. You should actually replace 32.79 with 3279, since otherwise you are converting haste rating at a rate of 32.79 rating per 100%. Should read:

Base_Speed / [(1 + Haste1) * (1 + Haste2) * (1 + Haste3) * (1+ (SUM(Haste_Rating)) / 3279)] = Final_Speed

Or, perhaps more clearly:

$speed=\frac{base}{(1+h_1)(1+h_2)\cdots(1+h_n)\left(1+\cfrac{r_1+r_2+\cdots+r_n}{3279} \right)}$

Edit: Also, I like to point out that this value isn't speed at all; it's actually time between consecutive swings. I really wish Blizzard wouldn't call it that.

 03/18/09, 10:21 AM #2169 Dangasaur Glass Joe   Styrene Undead Rogue   Gurubashi Thanks, really appreciate it. *facepalm* for not checking wowwiki.
03/18/09, 12:54 PM   #2170
Spookydookie
Glass Joe

Anvilmar
 Originally Posted by Krollin The spreadsheet is a good guide to how you should be gearing, you can trust it alright. Couple of points though: your hit, while low, is not disastrously so as long as you are using +40 hit rating food and are getting Misery + Draenei hit bonus. Your weapons are a cause for concern: unless you have better you should get an LPC and use that in your OH, switch Omen of Ruin to you MH and not use Twilight Mist. (I am assuming that your Armory is showing the gear you use in Raids here though). You should be using at least Mongoose on them and not +50 AP too. Berserker or Accuracy on either of those weapons would be a waste with 3.1 coming up.
Okay so looking over the numbers from last night, I have reduced the percent of misses on my melee strikes from around 20% to 16% overall and 14% on patchwerk. My hit rating is up to 207 and it was most of the night (I picked up Fool's Trail early in the raid).
I felt that I did a lot better last night than I was doing previously...which is contrary to what my spreadsheet said would happen from re-gemming for hit.
Should I take this as a lesson to take the Spreadsheet with a grain of salt?

And moreover...
you mentioned my weapons...I DO have 2 LPC's lying around. That was what i used before.
I originally only picked up the Twilight Mist to have something to fall back on when 3.1 came out. However, upon curiously putting it into my spreadsheet, It was suggested to be a better weapon to use in the offhand (I'm unsure why it was in my MH in the armory snapshot you saw, probably just an accident after fishing or something. It certainly hasn't been that way in raids).

So now having brought what the spreadsheet said was "best" on my gems into question with what actually performed better...WOULD it be a better idea to go back to LPC in my offhand?
idk who to trust anymore /sob

One more note: I know my wep enchants are sub-optimal, i'm just a bit starved for cash and have been holding out for some WD's to make the change...I'm curious though why Berserking will go to waste in 3.1 as you mentioned. Are you simply saying that some better enchant is coming out? Or do you know something more that I have not heard? If so...please do share =]

 03/18/09, 1:59 PM #2171 Kakon Glass Joe     Kakon Undead Rogue   Archimonde Ok, need just a quick answer and maybe a bit of math to back it up. On target dummies testing out using Evis vs. Evenom. With the Evis using dual instant while I have a hunter poison the dummy, and switched to 3 points into the talent as well as the glyph. Then using Evenom with instant mh, deadly OH. At the moment getting about 100-200 increase in dps on the dummy when using evenom. However with raid buffs pushing up AP would the dual instants outdo the instant/deadly with evenom? I put those numbers through Vuljin's sheet and even with raid buffs (including 2% from either a combat rogue or arms warrior) evenom still showed higher dps then evis by about 300-400. BUT.....this did not include the extra 10% to SnD that was put in not to long ago. Tested out the diff in my raid dmg (with same raid make up each week) and found that using evenom was about 350 dps more that my weeks prior with no gear changes. This reflects the spreadsheet numbers. Currently using webbed death x2, with instant mh, deadly oh and 26 exertise rating. Just need a helpful clear response to this, trying to work the math but I get muddled down in a few places. (Side note: cant wait to go back to combat once KT decides to actually drop Calamity's Grasp) Last edited by Kakon : 03/18/09 at 2:52 PM.
03/18/09, 2:54 PM   #2172
Maaras
Glass Joe

Night Elf Rogue

Cenarius
 Originally Posted by Spookydookie One more note: I know my wep enchants are sub-optimal, i'm just a bit starved for cash and have been holding out for some WD's to make the change...I'm curious though why Berserking will go to waste in 3.1 as you mentioned. Are you simply saying that some better enchant is coming out? Or do you know something more that I have not heard? If so...please do share =]
There are no new DPS weapon enchants coming in 3.1. I believe what he was trying to say is that spending a bunch of money to put Berserking on your weapons now (on my server, the mats for Berserking run in the neighborhood 800-1000 gold per weapon) might not be appealing to everyone, since you have a high probability of getting new weapons very soon after 3.1 lands, which would just require that you get the enchant again. As a 1-month stopgap, Mongoose is an affordable alternative that will suffice.

 03/18/09, 3:10 PM #2173 paramourn Glass Joe   paramourn Blood Elf Rogue   Firetree Currently I have Dual webbed deaths but also have one sinister's revenge. Trying to beat on the dummies I ended up pushing at 2500 even with both 2x webbed and 1x webbed/ 1x sinister's revenge (the dps was pretty much exactly the same). Just curious, there is no set up that will allow for more dps in pve with the sinister's revenge in the offhand/mainhand correct? 2x webbed death still reigns superior in the pve area, correct. I guess I'm just looking for a definitive, "your webbed deaths are the best thing you can get right now" I've been hearing mixed things. Thanks.
03/18/09, 3:15 PM   #2174
saedo
King Hippo

Night Elf Rogue

Gorgonnash
 Originally Posted by paramourn Currently I have Dual webbed deaths but also have one sinister's revenge. Trying to beat on the dummies I ended up pushing at 2500 even with both 2x webbed and 1x webbed/ 1x sinister's revenge (the dps was pretty much exactly the same). Just curious, there is no set up that will allow for more dps in pve with the sinister's revenge in the offhand/mainhand correct? 2x webbed death still reigns superior in the pve area, correct. I guess I'm just looking for a definitive, "your webbed deaths are the best thing you can get right now" I've been hearing mixed things. Thanks.
For now yes. For 3.1 it's SR MH, WD OH based on how things look atm.

 03/18/09, 3:22 PM #2175 Rambaral Piston Honda   Rambaral Human Rogue   Bronzebeard I hate to say it, but adding those dummies possibly did more harm than good. The dummies are not useful for testing your dps, they are used for testing long-term sessions for proc rates and to help you practice your rotation. Any dps you do against the dummy is not at all indicative of your actual dps in a raid setting, or even a 5 man.

 Elitist Jerks Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers