Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 15

Raienna · 11/24/08, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Penumbruis

Another

Savage Combat says it increases all 'physical damage' by 2%. Would this include poisons?

Thanks.

As far as I'm aware poisons are Nature damage and therefore are affected by spell damage buffs (I think old Misery affected them?) and not physical damage buffs. This might have changed or I might have misunderstood it in the first place though.

Shaker · 11/24/08, 7:50 PM

Correct, poisons are spell damage, use spell mechanics (resists, armor ignore, etc), and use spell buffs/debuffs. This is a good thing, because that means it uses the 13% spelldamage debuff over the 2% physical one.

dabadguy · 11/24/08, 10:08 PM

1) Vile poisons, does the formula look like A or B?

a) [(BasePoisonDmg)+((AP)*(PoisonAPModifier)]*1.2
b) [(BasePoisonDmg)*1.2]+[(AP)*(PoisonAPModifier)]

2) Energy ticks were 2 seconds. How long is the time between Ruptrue and DP ticks?
3) Does haste affect the two above? Should it?

• Vulajin · 11/24/08, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by dabadguy

1) Vile poisons, does the formula look like A or B?

a) [(BasePoisonDmg)+((AP)*(PoisonAPModifier)]*1.2
b) [(BasePoisonDmg)*1.2]+[(AP)*(PoisonAPModifier)]

2) Energy ticks were 2 seconds. How long is the time between Ruptrue and DP ticks?
3) Does haste affect the two above? Should it?

1) A, except that you missed a closing parenthesis.
2) 2 seconds and 3 seconds respectively, but I'm not sure what those have to do with energy ticks.
3) No. No.

Originally Posted by Penumbruis

I am developing a rogue combat simulator in c# and have managed to find most of the information I need thus far. However, there are a few things which I would like either answering or confirming based on the fact that I have found multiple sources which contradict each other. My questions are as follows: -

1.) Does Adrenaline Rush stack with Vitality? Multiplicatively or Additively?
2.) Focused Attacks, what does it proc off? I so far have it proccing off White Attacks, Eviscerate, Backstab, Envenom, Sinister Strike, Mutilate (But only once if both hands crit). I don't have it proccing off Rupture. Is this right? (Other abilites I have missed off aren't implemented as yet).
3.) Find Weakness, what does it affect? I have all special attacks and poisons but not white damage.
4.) Hunger for Blood - Does it affect poisons? I have it affecting everything at the moment.
5.) Cut to the Chase - Does it take Improved SnD into account? The SnD glyph? Does the glyph additional duration get affected by Improved SnD?
6.) Poison increased hit talents - Are these Additive or Mutiplicative? The envenom bonus, Additive or Mutiplicative? If a build has Precision, Improved Poisons and the Envenom bonus active whats the formula?
7.) Poison increased damage talents - Are these Additive or Mutiplicative? I have all the talent increases (Vile Poisons, Hunger For Blood, Murder, Find Weakness etc.) combined additively and then the result combined multiplicatively with the base damage which is that same as melee damage I believe.
8.) Mutilate - Talent bonuses, poison 50% bonus, dual wield bonus, how are they applied mutiplicatively or additively? At the moment I have Talent Bonuses combined additively and then the result combined multiplicatively with the poison bonus and the dual wield bonus.

After keeping my eye on this forum for a while it seems like the best place to get the right answers so thanks in advance for answering my questions

1) Not currently known.
2) You have everything correct except that it procs twice on a Mutilate double crit.
3) Openers, combo moves, finishers.
4) It affects everything.
5) Yes. Yes. We think so.
6) Precision reduces the chance that poison procs miss, so it has no direct interaction with Improved Poisons or Envenom. Improved Poisons and Envenom are additive with one another, increasing the chance on a weapon hit that your poisons proc.

7) Many talents that provide passive percentage boosts to specific abilities or specific types of attacks are additive. For example, Find Weakness, Aggression, Surprise Attacks, Opportunity, and T6 4pc all apply additively to the abilities they modify. However, active buffs that provide such bonuses and debuffs that provide such bonuses are usually multiplicative. Also, talents that increase all damage by a percentage tend to be multiplicative. So, Vile Poisons, Hunger for Blood, and Murder are all multiplicative against one another.

8) Mutilate is complicated. Main hand and off hand damage are determined by taking the base weapon damage, then adding normalized AP damage, then reducing the off hand by the 50% off hand penalty, then adding 181 damage to each hand, then increasing the off hand damage by 10% per point of Dual Wield Specialization, then applying talent increases (Find Weakness, Opportunity, T6 4pc) additively, then applying the poison bonus multiplicatively.

Echophantom · 11/24/08, 11:28 PM

The SnD glyph and talent interaction must be there. Constantly getting 18-second Slices from 1 combo point, which is ((tooltip of 9s) + (glyph 3s)) * 1.5, whereas if it were applied after the talent calculation it would be 16.5 seconds long.

Defect · 11/25/08, 5:14 AM

Has anyone got any thoughts on this spec?

Mutilate 51/13/7

Adding the Vigor glyph alongside the Slice & Dice and Rupture glyphs.
It would mean +20 energy vs. an extra point in Ruthlessness.

Kino59 · 11/25/08, 5:40 AM

I don't think it is worth taking vigor + glyph since during a fight or trash mobs you'll spam your skills and energy won't raise up over 60.

On the opposite, I guess it's a good point for a pvp point of view.

Penumbruis · 11/25/08, 6:08 AM

In regards to Poisons then: -

1.) If you have successfully applied a poison to a mob, whats the chance of that application missing? Formula?
2.) What is the chance/formula for resisting some or all of the poison?

Thanks.

Moggy006 · 11/25/08, 7:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kjallstrom

Can anyone recommend a good visual display for "you have 5 CPs, go!"?

Think this is probably the wrong section for this kind of talk however a quick search for "combo" on Curse.com might be a good place to start?

I personally use BasicComboPoints though i have no experience playing HaT.

dabadguy · 11/25/08, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Penumbruis

In regards to Poisons then: -

1.) If you have successfully applied a poison to a mob, whats the chance of that application missing? Formula?
2.) What is the chance/formula for resisting some or all of the poison?

Thanks.

1) If your melee attack has hit, and the game has determined that your poison has procc'd, the roll goes like this for hit:

Random 0,1,"PoisonHitRoll"
If PoisonHitRoll=<(1-.17+[(Precision)*.01)+[(Misery)*.01]+[(Hit%)/26.23].....etc
Then
Poison Hits
Else
Poison Miss

Precision is a number, 0 through 5, corresponding with how many points you have in the talent.
Same for Misery.
Same for anything else you want to add in.

Very dumbed down explanation of poison hit mechanics. Basically, the game rolls a number between 0 and 1 and if it is within the defined bounds of your hit% (1-SpellMiss) then it's a hit. Spell Hit is calculated at a different ratio than physical hit, hence the different modifier on the %Hit to Spell Hit conversion in the above formula.

2) Spell Miss mechanics are simply this:

Add up all your talents, hit rating (divide this by 26.23, not 32.8 for poisons), debuffs on boss etc. Take this magic number you get (we'll call it PoisonPlusHit) and subtract it from 17%. So with just precision and no other buffs/debuffs, you get .17-.05=.12. 12%. That's your chance to have your poison resisted once you have had a successful roll to apply it to the mob.

Here's a question:

Was the whole 1% base resist that you used to not be able to overcome based on the fact that the programming used < instead of =< in the formula? If the code went (roughly):

Random 0,1,"PoisonHitRoll"
If PoisonHitRoll<1
Then
Poison Hit
Else
Poison Miss

Where the static 1 on the right side of the inequality was assuming that you were spell hit capped (1-(.17-.17)). People realized that even with 17% hit, there was no way that 1 would ever be greater than 1, which implied that there would be a base 1% that was not overcomable with gear. Hence the idea basically became to make it so that you pushed the right side as high as it would go, by getting the 16% hit that would affect the roll (1-(.17-.16)).

dabadguy · 11/25/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kino59

I don't think it is worth taking vigor + glyph since during a fight or trash mobs you'll spam your skills and energy won't raise up over 60.

On the opposite, I guess it's a good point for a pvp point of view.

Energy queuing is a huge part of "rogue-ing."

You don't just spam your skills as soon as you get the energy for it. Ideally, using Mutilate every 60 energy and waiting until 80 energy works out for the same in terms of DPS. The only time this can change is if you have buffs on you that occur within the first 7.95 seconds as opposed to that 8th second.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 10 20 30 40
^MUTILATE!

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 20 30 40
^MUTILATE

As long as you don't let your energy cap, or SnD wear off, or HfB drop, you should be able to wait and time your mutilates for when you have the most buffs that would benefit it (i.e. Berserking Enchat proc, trinket procs, etc). The end result is always 1 mutilate and X energy regened after 10 sec (40 w/o any FA or buffs of any kind).

Tinwhisker · 11/25/08, 9:17 AM

Part of leveling is leveling my lockpicking skill. As a result I've been pickpocketing lots of mobs but while trying out [Vestige of Haldor] I ran into an interesting problem. Pickpocketing procs the effect; it's repeatable, obvious and really annoying (possibly dangerous).

I don't ever remember pickpocketing proc'ing things but I'm not sure if that's my fuzzy memory or not, is pickpocketing an actual attack or is this a bug? (I'm going to report it as one either way because it's really annoying.)

Kino59 · 11/25/08, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by dabadguy

Energy queuing is a huge part of "rogue-ing."

You don't just spam your skills as soon as you get the energy for it. Ideally, using Mutilate every 60 energy and waiting until 80 energy works out for the same in terms of DPS. The only time this can change is if you have buffs on you that occur within the first 7.95 seconds as opposed to that 8th second.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 10 20 30 40
.............................^MUTILATE!

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 20 30 40
.................................^MUTILATE

As long as you don't let your energy cap, or SnD wear off, or HfB drop, you should be able to wait and time your mutilates for when you have the most buffs that would benefit it (i.e. Berserking Enchat proc, trinket procs, etc). The end result is always 1 mutilate and X energy regened after 10 sec (40 w/o any FA or buffs of any kind).

Oh sure, I totally agree, I just may used the wrong way to say it.

So you agree that it is not worth using 1 talent point for vigor in a PVE-spec ?

Oh, and by quoting your message I understood your, hmmm, illustration ? (the spaces to show where to mutilate aren't in the message.)

Penumbruis · 11/25/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by dabadguy

Here's a question:

Was the whole 1% base resist that you used to not be able to overcome based on the fact that the programming used < instead of =< in the formula? If the code went (roughly):

Random 0,1,"PoisonHitRoll"
If PoisonHitRoll<1
Then
Poison Hit
Else
Poison Miss

Where the static 1 on the right side of the inequality was assuming that you were spell hit capped (1-(.17-.17)). People realized that even with 17% hit, there was no way that 1 would ever be greater than 1, which implied that there would be a base 1% that was not overcomable with gear. Hence the idea basically became to make it so that you pushed the right side as high as it would go, by getting the 16% hit that would affect the roll (1-(.17-.16)).

You are making the assumption that the combat system generates a random number to only 2 decimal places of accuracy for this to be the case. I strongly suspect that the game engine generates a random number which has a far larger degree of precision.

In regards to the answers to my questions, can you clear up the following because the answers to 1 and 2 seemed to be the same:-

So with poisons there is 17% base chance to miss and there is a different hit rating ratio that is used to calculate the actual miss chance.

So for poisons there is only Hit and Miss in the hit table?
How does resisting factor in?
Is resisting and missing the same?
Whats the formula/mechanics for a partial resist?

EDIT - Actually, I know crit is in the hit table too, so ignore that question. I just wanted to know the relationship between miss and resist.

EDIT - More questions:-

1.) Is the application of deadly poison subject to the same mechanics as the other poisons?
2.) Is each tick of deadly poison subject to the same mechanics?

Thanks.

Solzzy · 11/25/08, 10:12 AM

I've been playing a rogue unconsciously for about a year and a half. Now when i say unconsciously I mean i was not paying much attention to the detailed and even the obvious things that a rogue should know. I've just recently gotten myself in a progression guild because of a friend. Most of the rogues I know try to help me out but in the end its up to me to improve so I am trying to learn all this rogue dialogue first one being EP VALUES what are theses and how do they work with rogue stats? This was the most confusing to me after I learned most of the rogue dialogue.