It will only trigger Ascend if you are the only person outside black holes. Should your raid be out of cooldowns for Big Bang, you can vanish the Big Bang and retag him with Killing Spree without trickering Ascend. As long as you have someone not resetting threat, it's a perfectly viable way of increasing time on target though I personally don't like doing it unless specced for Cheat Death. Landing the odd auto-attack will cause it to fail and that simply isn't worth dying to. Emalon's Lightning Nova isn't lethal if you use Feint, Big Bang sure is. While I do like to save Vanish on Firefighter for the occasional (for whatever reason) unavoidable Plasma Blast, I don't believe it's worth vanish immuning avoidable abilities which will kill you, should your vanish fail. In the end I guess it comes down to how reliably you can vanish immune stuff.
While on the subject of Vanish utility: You can immune Incinerate Flesh on Jaraxxus and even cause Anub'arak's Pursuing Spikes to swap targets saving your raid a permafrost.
I have been combat for a while (15/51/5) and I tried out a new spec (18/51/2) that gave me points in poisons, it did admirably on the charts. Has anyone else given this one a go? I found that coming from mutilate originally the crazy amounts of poison damage just wasn't there in combat. Thoughts?
I've been rockin 18/51/2 for a while despite seeing just about every other combat rogue out there with 15/51/5. While in the very small minority I've noticed a boost in dps significant enough to keep the spec the way it is. Also, the spreadsheet tells me to do it which helps
I've been rockin 18/51/2 for a while despite seeing just about every other combat rogue out there with 15/51/5. While in the very small minority I've noticed a boost in dps significant enough to keep the spec the way it is. Also, the spreadsheet tells me to do it which helps
Since this is a Simple Questions/Simple Answers forum, I feel it's appropriate to mention to any newerish rogues perusing these forums that 18/51/2 requires a sophisticated understanding of cycles, rotations, pooling energy, etc. Since you will only have 2/5 in Relentless Strikes, energy won't be as bountiful as it is with 15/51/5, so your cycle/rotation can get knocked off course and it is hard to recover.
The poison buffs from 3/3 in Vile Poisons ARE delicious, though -- particularly when your FoK spam puts ticking poison on 10 mobs at once during those long, multi-mob trash pulls as you approach Hodir, Freya, Mimiron, General, etc.
One more thing about this build that I've noticed: while I don't have scientific models in front of me, I've noticed in Trial of the Crusader fights that the bosses are dispelling my poison more frequently than I've seen in the past, so having 3/3 Vile Poisons might be something worth looking into.
However -- to those newerish rogues considering this spec, be warned: it requires a lot of discipline to play well.
So when I first got 4pc T8 about a month or two ago, a rogue in my guild pointed out that 51/7/13 was the top DPS spec, and I believed him, I'd seen a few things posted here about it and went with it. Now I've heard on MMO that there's a post here saying there was an error in a spreadsheet that showed 51/7/13 as optimal. They had a link to the post but the link doesnt work and I can't find it. Is this true and its not really optimal or is it still good?
I put it in Thaela's mutilate spreadsheet and it was like a 5 dps upgrade over the basic mutilate spec.
So, I've been really unlucky with t8 drops and have been sitting at 3/5 T8 for the longest time now. Because of this, I was wondering if it would be better if I dropped rupture from my cycle and only used SND/Eviscerate during Hodir since Storm Power does not affect rupture without 4pc T8. I searched and only found some theoretical posts about how it may be better for non-4pc T8 Mutilate rogues to drop rupture since Envenom and also the poison procs from the envenom buff benefit from the NPC buffs. Currently I dual-spec combat (one for more AOE oriented fights, one for single target DPS), and I don't really have the option to spec mut mainly because I do not have a good mainhand dagger to work with.
I curious why people aren't talking about using two Death's Choice/Verdicts. I know they say unique, but (to give another trinket as example) a druid in my guild got the heroic version of [Talisman of Volatile Power] and equipped it with the normal version (some offspec tomfoolery). I was curious if this had been considered since both Death's Verdicts would be an impressive combination. If they shared the same proc and could not double proc, we could try to see if they shared cooldown (i.e. equip second trinket 30 before pull for new cd mechanic to increase buff uptime).
I think it's clear that Blizzard's intent is that you can't where both the heroic and regular versions at the same time; and if, by some bug, it is possible to do so, I think it's fair to say that it's a bug that will at some point be fixed.
Second, even were that not the case, Death's Verdict is going to be a singularly popular trinket, and, as such, getting both normal and heroic versions - at least, doing so before everyone in your guild at least has one or the other - is somewhat greedy and not really beneficial to your guild. Particularly since, at BIS gear levels, it's a marginal upgrade at best to do so - double Death's Verdict setups are a bit above Heroic Verdict + Mjolnir softcap setups, but not by so large a margin that I'd take the second one over someone who didn't have one already.
It IS possible to wear both, saw a rogue with both on my server. Sadly I can't remember his name, but I can remember the maintank of the top guild: The World of Warcraft Armory who is wearing both heroic and normal version of Juggernaut's Vitality.
Even if they can wear both and it is Blizzard's intention to allow that, there is still a question if proccing one would trigger an internal cooldown for both.
The procs are different so it's likely that they aren't on the same cd as opposed Mirror of Truth & Anvil of Titans which has the same proc and thus on the same internal. However I doubt it's their intent to allow it to be equipped at the same time.
I remember visiting these forums a while back and there was a topic started about the pros and cons of putting up expose armor, as well as the pros/cons of a dps warrior applying sunders.
Upon looking, I have not been able to find this thread again, and was wondering if someone could post the general conclussion that was made, or possibly even a link to the topic/post itself.
I remember visiting these forums a while back and there was a topic started about the pros and cons of putting up expose armor, as well as the pros/cons of a dps warrior applying sunders.
Upon looking, I have not been able to find this thread again, and was wondering if someone could post the general conclussion that was made, or possibly even a link to the topic/post itself.
The general conclusion at the time was, in the absence of a prot warrior, for targets that would live (or be DPS'd) less than 30 seconds, Expose was superior. For targets that would live longer than a minute, Sunders are a smaller DPS loss. 30-60 seconds is generally a wash.
So because of some weird alignment of the planets thing with upgrades, I've got way too much hit. Specifically, 527 hit rating unbuffed. Is there any point as mut at which it's worth taking points out of precision and thus CQC and putting them presumably into serrated blades? Right now I could lose all 5 points and still be above the poison hit cap
While on the subject of Vanish utility: You can immune Incinerate Flesh on Jaraxxus and even cause Anub'arak's Pursuing Spikes to swap targets saving your raid a permafrost.
This is the first time I've come across mention of "vanish immunity". How does it work? When you're being targetted for something, you vanish and you'd still get "hit" by the effect, but you'd be considered immune for it? Is that for the period that the vanish buff is up? Or is there something more to it?
Or is it a de-aggro, target lost type thing?
Last edited by tenaki : 09/06/09 at 10:22 PM.
Reason: Added last line. Grammar
In regards to vanish immunity, I only have my own experiences to base this off. But with a typical cast-time aoe effect, mimiron/emalon, if you vanish as the effect is cast, or a split-second before, you can become 'immune' to the damage it would otherwise cause. why this is, idk.
I also do not know how long this effect lasts, so whenever I attempt to pull this off, I wait as long as I can before to cast is complete. Perhaps it is something that occurs as long as the vanish animation lasts?
You don't need to be targetted for this effect to work, but if you are, I assume it'd work like any other vanish, loss of being targetted and aggro wipe.
Again, this is all off of my personal experience, and no official testing senario.
This is the first time I've come across mention of "vanish immunity". How does it work? When you're being targetted for something, you vanish and you'd still get "hit" by the effect, but you'd be considered immune for it? Is that for the period that the vanish buff is up? Or is there something more to it?
Or is it a de-aggro, target lost type thing?
The target loss is useful for randomly targeted abilities with a cast time, but that's not what "vanish immuning" is--at least, there are more impressive uses of vanish. Basically, there is some period of time while you're vanishing that attacks simply won't hit you. The easiest example is if a lock is casting chaos bolt, you can vanish after he finishes his cast but before the chaos bolt hits you. However, it's not limited to spells with a cast or an obvious travel time--for example, you can vanish right as a rogue cheap shots you, wasting his cheap shot and bringing him out of stealth but leaving you vanished.
I don't believe there is an immune message in the combat log or anything; the ability just never hits you if you vanish it. The timing is a bit finicky however and depends on your latency, so I can't recommend it for something that will kill you (e.g. shock blast), but it is certainly nice for abilities that will simply pull you off target (auriaya's fear, emalon's lightning nova).
I remember visiting these forums a while back and there was a topic started about the pros and cons of putting up expose armor, as well as the pros/cons of a dps warrior applying sunders.
Upon looking, I have not been able to find this thread again, and was wondering if someone could post the general conclussion that was made, or possibly even a link to the topic/post itself.
Quick question about specs in my particular situation, any opinions or feedback is appreciated.
I am currently Combat 5/5 Hack and Slash with [Hellscream Slicer]/[Blood Fury]. I switched to Axes when TOC was launched to take advantage of the easily-accessible and low-demand axes, and it has worked out in the sense that I have actually been able to get my hands on them.
My original spec was Combat 5/5 CQC with a variety of ~232 fists and daggers, and I would average about 6600 on an Ignis burn. With my new spec, a couple upgrades and my new weapons, I'm putting out around the same damage. I notice that Hack and Slash does not seem to be returning much actual output over long fight, and the missing CQC crit really shows.
Basically my question is at this point should I abandon the Axe Spec and take the hit, or is this example inconclusive? If so, at this point with the upcoming Mut changes, if I had equal access to 232 MH Daggers and Fists, should I consider switching to full mutilate because of the Envenom changes, or fall back on CQC?
I apologize if this is too speculative or specific for these boards, by all means delete it if so.
Firstly i think it has been pretty well documented in another thread that the Envenom and MP buffs have not adequately brought Mutilate into line with Combat on a theoretical dps basis (ofcourse human difference could mean you would be more effective with Mutilate than a fellow rogue in Combat, but that would be relevant to your quality of play).
Moreover it seems that with your current gear and the weapons available to you, Combat is your most viable option (i still adhere to the principle that you should let your weapon choose your spec and not the other way round).
With regards to Ignis and your gear changes, no one will be able to make an analytical comparison of your previous gear and current gear and its relation to your performance fluctuations, nor would they want to. To quote a relatively overused piece of advice 'use a spreadsheet' and see what numbers you get with both options.
Finally, remember those three beautiful letters that plague the WoW community, RNG. With those axes in mind it is obvious you have only had a couple of goes on Ignis in your new spec and it is far more likely that the similarity in performance between new and old gear is down to a huge bunch of factors. Raid buffs, external procs, internal procs, frequency of berserking procs, time on target, slag pots, activity and procs during Heroism, maybe you weren't as focused, maybe you didn't get as many ToTTs and maybe when you did get them you weren't making as much of them as you did in CQC. I could go on, but i won't. All i will say is this, HnS is not an inferior spec to CQC and the relative boon of 5% crit is somewhat matched by the swings provided by HnS.
Check the spreadsheet and rate your performance more on your overall quality of play, not the relatively arbitrary numbers you pull on the dps check in Ulduar. =)
Firstly i think it has been pretty well documented in another thread that the Envenom and MP buffs have not adequately brought Mutilate into line with Combat on a theoretical dps basis (ofcourse human difference could mean you would be more effective with Mutilate than a fellow rogue in Combat, but that would be relevant to your quality of play).
The Envenom and MP buffs may not have boosted Mut enough, but keep in mind that the ArP nerfs hit combat much harder than mutilate. Blade Flurry less useful in ToC than ever before. Throwing Spec is being nerfed.
Quick question about specs in my particular situation, any opinions or feedback is appreciated.
I am currently Combat 5/5 Hack and Slash with [Hellscream Slicer]/[Blood Fury]. I switched to Axes when TOC was launched to take advantage of the easily-accessible and low-demand axes, and it has worked out in the sense that I have actually been able to get my hands on them.
My original spec was Combat 5/5 CQC with a variety of ~232 fists and daggers, and I would average about 6600 on an Ignis burn. With my new spec, a couple upgrades and my new weapons, I'm putting out around the same damage. I notice that Hack and Slash does not seem to be returning much actual output over long fight, and the missing CQC crit really shows.
Basically my question is at this point should I abandon the Axe Spec and take the hit, or is this example inconclusive? If so, at this point with the upcoming Mut changes, if I had equal access to 232 MH Daggers and Fists, should I consider switching to full mutilate because of the Envenom changes, or fall back on CQC?
I apologize if this is too speculative or specific for these boards, by all means delete it if so.
From posts just recently made in the Buggy Rogue Mechanics thread, it appears that Precision isn't affecting axes, so the difference in dps can probably be explained by the loss of 5% chance to hit.
I was wondering the same Rambaral, but i guess guilds somehow pile up the mobs and FoK is viable. In my raids its a mess so we single target them and i get to 6.5-7k only.
Anyways, back to my question:
How valid are the numbers from the spreadsheets when all the buffs are deselected in comparison to the boss dummy?
The reason i ask is according to the newest Aldrianna's sheet i am supposed to be at almost 4k (unbuffed-think it assumes the use of 180AP flask at all times) while playing with the dummy for 3x5min i get to 3.5k (KS and BF are not used since i ll hit other targets).
I agree that dummy fighting is useless but it does show possible mistakes in play style.
This is going to seem like a rudimentary question -- and I did spend 20 minutes just now searching the forums and scouring search results re: this topic, but to no avail.
Here's the situation: My guild just picked up two leet rogues. When I suggested to them the other night that we share tricks on each other (after the tank has a sufficient aggro table, of course), they were aghast and said, "We'll aggro right off the charts."
I recall reading somewhere that if two rogues use TotT on each other, the threat kinda' cancels each other out since both are equally amplified?
Is there any school of thought on this? In a very competitive guild as far as the damage dealers go, I for one would LOVE to share my Tricks buff with another rogue, and have the favor returned obviously.
Any insight would be helpful. Sorry again for asking this. I'm sure it's existent somewhere here on the forums, but I had a hard time finding it. (Also, might be useful to put something in the 3.2 FAQ about working with tricks?)
first, Campiona, this is how I do it:
ToTT transfers threat from you to another character in the raid. You have 2 options how to use it:
1. Use on tank, this way all your threat for the seconds in the tool tip will to towards the tank's aggro generation. This helps tank with threat issues and enables casters and such to go all out from the beginning. I use it on every pull.
2. Use on another rogue, who in turn, will use his at the same time (1 sec later) on you. What happens is the amount of threat you generate then is counted towards the other rogues' while the one he generates will go towards yours. In effect, if rogue A and B have equal dps at the time, you will not see any threat reduction or increase while you will both enjoy extra dps. I have no idea if the threat actually cancels out this way, but i have never stolen aggro, except on hodir but that is my fail.
This is going to seem like a rudimentary question -- and I did spend 20 minutes just now searching the forums and scouring search results re: this topic, but to no avail.
Here's the situation: My guild just picked up two leet rogues. When I suggested to them the other night that we share tricks on each other (after the tank has a sufficient aggro table, of course), they were aghast and said, "We'll aggro right off the charts."
I recall reading somewhere that if two rogues use TotT on each other, the threat kinda' cancels each other out since both are equally amplified?
Is there any school of thought on this? In a very competitive guild as far as the damage dealers go, I for one would LOVE to share my Tricks buff with another rogue, and have the favor returned obviously.
Any insight would be helpful. Sorry again for asking this. I'm sure it's existent somewhere here on the forums, but I had a hard time finding it. (Also, might be useful to put something in the 3.2 FAQ about working with tricks?)
Whenever there have been 3 rogues in my raid we have never had a problem with agro. Even if you somehow pull agro (which I doubt would happen) you also have vanish.
09/04/09, 6:18 PM
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