Best target for Hysteria?
There has been some talk about what class should get the hysteria buff in a raid and the common word out there seems to be that feral cat druids are the optimal targets for hysteria since all of their dmg is physical. But has any calculations been made on the relative dps increase in relation to for example a rogue with all haste buffs up and running + hysteria?
And please correct me if I'm wrong but we benefit alot by stacking all haste buffs together, right? Using SnD + Blade Flurry + Potion of Speed on Blood Lust == stacking buffs => higher dps. Which in turn should generate a relatively higher dmg increase for a rogue with hysteria during those seconds compared to any other physical dps class. Or maybe Hysteria + Killing Spree, and then go Bladeflurry + Potion after. Would be interesting to see if anyone did some sort of comparison with real numbers instead of that feral druid on EJ's druid forum who claimed druids are the optimal target because.. "Rogues - A good portion of their damage is elemental."
Hysteria targets is very much something you should be working out with your own raid group. Take a look at your log files. If you're wondering about cooldown interaction, then compare yourself to raidmates during a bloodlust - that's when you'll see how people react to external buffs, anyway. Don't forget Feral has its own cooldowns.
The last time I checked for my own raid group was for the Steelbreaker burn phase, admittedly awhile ago. The breakdown for my raid group (which is not your raid group), I believe was Combat > Feral > Hunter/Mutilate > DK. Don't ask me about warriors.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Hysteria is generally better applied to the player, not the class - put it on the person with the awareness, skills, and gear to best make use of it.
All things being equal, a feral is probably the best choice yes - they do 100% physical damage, have great cooldowns to stack, and can 'double dip' by getting a full stack of fresh bleeds up before hysteria expires.
But if that feral isn't keeping up with your rogues to begin with, whether because he prioritizes his tanking gear, or just plays poorly, or whatever, then he won't be as useful a hysteria target. As Maestroquark says - look at your own logs and decide for yourselves.
I spent some time today looking over spreadsheets for 3.2.2. My question is two part.
1. How accurately can I compare dps numbers between the combat 1.3 beta 3 (with 3.2.2 armor penetration turned on) and the Roguecraft 3.2.2 mutilate sheet? While I understand I can compare gear within each sheet, I am looking for overall BiS for dkp budgeting.
After spending some time messing with each sheet I found that the best combat dps was HnS/imp. evis. using Mjolnir Runestone and gemming for armor pen. soft cap. resulting in a dps of 9584, while the mutilate sheet (using both versions of Deaths Verdict and an envenom spam cycle) resulted in 10075 dps. Is this a result to be expected? I was under the impression that mutilate was falling behind combat at the end of ToC25.
2. With respect to the combat sheet, is the new BiS HnS/imp. Evis as described above?
I'm speccing combat for the first time in my life as a rogue, ever, and though (being rogue class leader) I have kept track of combat theory, I've been out of WoW for about a month due to starting Uni, so right now I'm curious what is the best way to gem combat at this moment, ArPen or Agility still, being hitcapped and in Ulduar non-HM gear, also due to my inactivety.
I spent some time today looking over spreadsheets for 3.2.2. My question is two part.
1. How accurately can I compare dps numbers between the combat 1.3 beta 3 (with 3.2.2 armor penetration turned on) and the Roguecraft 3.2.2 mutilate sheet? While I understand I can compare gear within each sheet, I am looking for overall BiS for dkp budgeting.
After spending some time messing with each sheet I found that the best combat dps was HnS/imp. evis. using Mjolnir Runestone and gemming for armor pen. soft cap. resulting in a dps of 9584, while the mutilate sheet (using both versions of Deaths Verdict and an envenom spam cycle) resulted in 10075 dps. Is this a result to be expected? I was under the impression that mutilate was falling behind combat at the end of ToC25.
2. With respect to the combat sheet, is the new BiS HnS/imp. Evis as described above?
The DPS numbers from the two sheets should be accurate enough that you can determine what spec/gear setup is best for you. I'd caution against using those final BiS numbers to determine your "one and only" path to gearing and use your best judgment. Sometimes that means playing a different spec than what you planned.
Deciding to spend DKP on only a single small set of items may leave you very disappointed when looking back you see that few of your pieces have been dropped and won and another upgrade path was continually sharded or, in the case of double Death's Verdict, you got exactly what you wanted and half your guild wants to see you murdered in your sleep.
As for Combat, HnS+ArP does appear to give the highest DPS right now but there's a strong case for a more traditional Agility based setup which offers nearly equivalent DPS plus the added defense of much a higher dodge rate.
...Deciding to spend DKP on only a single small set of items may leave you very disappointed when looking back you see that few of your pieces have been dropped and won and another upgrade path was continually sharded or, in the case of double Death's Verdict, you got exactly what you wanted and half your guild wants to see you murdered in your sleep...
I am usually the only mutilate rogue in the raid, and if mutilate does come out ahead I would prefer to stay mutilate (500 dps difference and the TotT glyph is not modeled in the mutilate sheet so the 3rd glyph slot is a 0dps increase for in a envenom spam rotation). Barring the desire of my guildmates to murder me, I was surprised by the difference in the outcome and was questioning the legitimacy of the numbers due to previous theory crafting. As well, I would be rather sad if top rogue DPS turned into a 2 button rotation that required no thought on dots, buffs, procs, or cool downs.
Edit: I forgot to evaluate murder versus a non murder-able target but the dps is still higher (9660) than the combat equivalent. In addition, the new rotation would allow a re-spec to pick up fleet footed (and quick recovery in a non murder-able encounter).
Last edited by kissadeath : 09/14/09 at 5:15 PM.
Reason: clearification
... and the TotT glyph is not modeled in the mutilate sheet so the 3rd glyph slot is a 0dps increase for in a envenom spam rotation).
Glyphed or not, you should be using TotT on every cooldown and I believe it's modeled in the sheet that you are. The only consideration you need to make then is whether a 3rd glyph slot provides more DPS to you than 4 more seconds of increased damage to your target raid member which is outside the scope and capabilities of the sheet.
Glyphed or not, you should be using TotT on every cooldown
Is this so? I've heard from a friend of mine who was in a top 30 guild (Numen) that TotT may not be worth the energy. This he based on conversations he had with another rogue from Numen, whose name I have forgotten. This friend of mine at least found the reasoning contain enough of a point for him to not use TotT in raids. Is this outdated (it was some time ago)?
Is this so? I've heard from a friend of mine who was in a top 30 guild (Numen) that TotT may not be worth the energy. This he based on conversations he had with another rogue from Numen, whose name I have forgotten. This friend of mine at least found the reasoning contain enough of a point for him to not use TotT in raids. Is this outdated (it was some time ago)?
A fair critique would be that unglyphed TotT on cooldown isn't always a *large* DPS boost, and, as such, may or may not be worth the extra attention required to do it on some fights. So there are circumstances where it may be reasonable to choose not to use it on cooldown. However, if you can effectively do so without screwing anything else up. it is always at least a theoretical DPS increase, unless you vastly outgear all other DPS in the raid.
I have also debated the merits of running Tricks of the Trade glyph if you have another rogue that you trade Tricks with regularly so I just ran the math behind using it vs Killing Spree glyph.
Using the 1.3 Beta 3 dps spreadsheet, Killing Spree glyph gives me 147 DPS. Tricks unglyphed gives you 3% damage increase and the Tricks glyph will give you an extra 4 secs per tricks, which is an additional 2% damage. 2% damage increase for me is 150 DPS so the Tricks glyph does not seem to be worth it since it requires the other rogue to always give you Tricks.
Under the assumption that you aren't timing it or using it at favorable times, you're completely correct. However, I cannot recommend enough simply making an agreement with your fellow rogue to put a whisper in your tricks macro and use tricks on him whenever he casts tricks on you. This allows you - with some amount of training - to pool a fair bit of energy and gives you the +15% damage when it really matters or perhaps more importantly; when you really want it. Snobold Blade Flurry cleave, Icehowl Staggering Daze zerg, Mistress of Pain cleaving on Jaraxxus are all resonable examples.
Last but not least - and arguably the best place for the Tricks of the Trade glyph - rogues using tricks on eachother for the AR+BF+FOK on Nerubian Burrowers on Anub'Arak hardmode. I realise I'm dangerously close to the restriction on hardmode discussions, but that type of fight is exactly where the Tricks of the Trade glyph will outperform most other glyphs - that is, of course, assuming your tanks can handle it.
A fair critique would be that unglyphed TotT on cooldown isn't always a *large* DPS boost, and, as such, may or may not be worth the extra attention required to do it on some fights. So there are circumstances where it may be reasonable to choose not to use it on cooldown. However, if you can effectively do so without screwing anything else up. it is always at least a theoretical DPS increase, unless you vastly outgear all other DPS in the raid.
Thanks, this was also my reasoning. I ignoring my friend's words, too, even though his source seemed reliable. But I've never found myself able to use it every cooldown, due to a messup in cycles, laziness or the house being on fire. I mainly use it when having spare energy, such as when having time left on SnD and pooling energy before envenoming. I wanted to test the use of the Tricks Glyph replacing my Rupture Glyph (as playing mutilate), but my fellow rogues wouldn't return that favour.
In concern to the ToTT glyph I did the math vs the rupture glyph. This is of course an ideal setting where ToTT is used every CD and rupture is always up.
I took a sparse from WMO, since I'm not playing any longer, and ratio'd them to a math friendly number.
DPS:9500
Rupture ticks:1850 (This is with 4pc T8 bonus)
Rupture Glyph
1850*6=11,100 (6 extra ticks in 1 minute)
9500*60=570,000
(570,000+11,100)/60=9685 DPS
...use of the Tricks Glyph replacing my Rupture Glyph (as playing mutilate)
This is what I was referring to. The tricks glyph is the only viable glyph option for mutilate in an envenom spam rotation and by "modeled" I was assuming, all things being equal, I would be on the receiving end of a glyphed TotT every cool down.
Using the latest combat spreadsheet (added my T7 pieces manually!), I get the cycle "low rupture". Can anyone explain what this means in terms of cycle? 5s/5e/Xr?
Using the latest combat spreadsheet (added my T7 pieces manually!), I get the cycle "low rupture". Can anyone explain what this means in terms of cycle? 5s/5e/Xr?
Aldriana explains this in the thread for the sheets at one point but I can't seem to find that at the moment so here's the rundown:
"Cycles" or at least the concept that you can do something like 5s/5r/5e is dead. Try to think of what you do as a rogue as more of a priority queue. This means that the "cycle" that the sheet spits out at you should more tell you what you should be prioritizing in your DPS.
In the case of "High Rupture" this means you will want to do everything you can short of energy capping to reach 100% Rupture uptime. Try to work with your abilities in such a way as to have a new 5CP Rupture queued up and ready when the previous one expires. A realistic Rupture uptime number is somewhere just north of 90% when you're doing it correctly. All other CPs should be burned off through Eviscerate.
In the case of "Low Rupture" this means that you should build 5CPs and use them on Rupture if you can do so without energy capping but otherwise spend them on Eviscerate. This will generally result in a much lower uptime for Rupture, somewhere around 60%, I think.
In the case of "Eviscerate Only"... well, that one is pretty well self explanatory.
In all cases you should use as many 5CP abilities as possible to maximize gains from Relentless Strikes; all Eviscerates and Ruptures should be 5CPs in the "Low Rupture" cycle, all Ruptures should be 5CPs in the "High Rupture" cycle. And when SnD is close to dropping, refresh it with whatever number of CPs you have remaining. That's about as clear as I can make the distinction between "Low Rupture" and "High Rupture" (and "Eviscerate Only").
edit:
As a side note, remember that your Rupture uptime is going to be directly influenced by things like target swapping. As a more extreme example, in the Heroic Jaraxxus fight you may very well be putting up EA on portals, mistresses, and volcanoes as well as swapping targets every 20-30 seconds. In fights like this, a "High Rupture" rogue may end up with the same Rupture uptime numbers as a "Low Rupture" rogue despite best efforts. D= This is partly due to having to swap targets all the time and partly due to the fact that a Rupture that only ticks for less than half it's duration would be a less efficient use of CPs than Eviscerate might be.
Last edited by Tinwhisker : 09/15/09 at 4:41 PM.
Reason: edit for typo and then for addition
I've been wanting to compare two setups for quite some time now, but only have access to the mac version of excel at the moment so I haven't been able to run the sim. Would swapping 4p tier 8 out for 4p tier 9 yield any sort of benefit for HAT? The only reason I ask is because the set bonuses seem very underwhelming for HAT, with 4p providing very little benefit on the occasional Hemo, and 2p really only seems like it would contribute to energy capping. Of course this is assuming that 4p tier 9 wouldn't put you over expertise cap, ideally right at it.
I have a question about the way the Tricks of the Trade threat transfer works. What happens if 2 or more other Rogues cast tricks on me, and I cast tricks on the tank? Would their threat kind of "flow" through me to the tank? Giving me a huge damage increase with none of the threat, or would their threat just stick to me?
I have a question about the way the Tricks of the Trade threat transfer works. What happens if 2 or more other Rogues cast tricks on me, and I cast tricks on the tank? Would their threat kind of "flow" through me to the tank? Giving me a huge damage increase with none of the threat, or would their threat just stick to me?
No, tricks does not work that way; you cannot "chain" threat like that. Their threat would stick to you.
Has the bug where not having dp applied (say, for instance, a double wp setup) resulted in unreliable savage combat uptime (as in, it flickers on and off) been fixed? And if not, would an arms warrior's buff cover it 100% or would my own buff end up overwriting it and cause intermittent periods of not having the +4% phys damage buff applied?
...and Mongoose gets even an extra bit of advantage as the haste given by the proc makes it more likely to refresh.
I am curious as to why people don't put Berserking on the mainhand weapon, and Mongoose on the offhand (seeing as how Mongoose proc'ing more often would benefit berserker procs, but Berserker proc'ing more often would not benefit mongoose procs). Is there some basic theorycrafting that determines this is a bad idea? I searched for a post on it and couldn't find anything; further, I tried to find out if agility has diminishing returns for either crit rating or attack power both on these forums and elsewhere and couldn't find a definite answer (perhaps I just need to refine my search techniques).
I suppose the simple question "Does agility have diminishing returns for either attack power or crit rating" is also contained in this post, but it's kind of secondary. My main question remains "Why don't people put Mongoose on the offhand and Berserking on the main?"
09/14/09, 8:46 AM
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