Assuming you are combat, if you're running a low rupture cycle, just eviscerate and then build back up. If you're running high rupture (or in the general case), go back in time and plan better, so that you burn off your CPs in an evis earlier and still have time to build back up to 5 for when your rupture wears off. (Ten seconds is probably enough to do that, depending on your gear.)
You shouldn't be clipping ruptures anyway, if you can help it. Certainly not with 10 (!) seconds left.
To elaborate on why you shouldn't clip rupture. If you're refreshing it with 10 seconds left then that's roughly 1085 damage that you're missing out on. If you still have ten seconds you should be able to refresh something else or eviscerate and build CP's by the time it falls off. Remember, rupture does damage on the 0 second mark, so if you can time it right don't refresh until it's ready to drop off.
Thank you both for the quick reply's but id understand what you mean a little more if I knew what Low Rupture and High Rupture meant. Ive done at least a dozen searches on here, Google and even the WOW forums. All Ive come up with is why spleens rupture... that don't really help me much.
The 10 second mark is normally where I start to think about it. I normally don't refresh rupture until around 3 seconds left and with my slow computer (1-2 fps in combat) that normally comes out to be about right. But then there are those times I just feel as if I cant get an Evis in and build another 5 points. Should I Evis more often with fewer then 5 points or just toss in an extra Sinister Strike or two as I wait for Rupture to tick down.
edit: Oops, my post pretty much repeated all the points made by Dinesh, missed that.
It's also explained a bit in the pocket guide post and Aldriana explains it here as well, followed by some good discussion on the topic that should help you understand it better.
Your script needs to assume that there is no DP stack on the target.
If there is no DP debuff that belongs to you detected on the target then your DP weapon will be swapped out immediately. This means that your script cannot work for the simple reason that unless you get a DP stack started before this script is run the first time it will swap your weapons around. This will almost certainly never happen.
The old script avoids this by assuming nothing about the presence of a DP stack at all "dp_detected = false" and setting the flag to equip your DP weapon if the condition in the loop is not fulfilled ie.
DP Weapon will be equipped if there is no DP Stack belonging to you or if the DP stack is not maxed or if the stack has less than switch time remaining. Otherwise equip your IP weapon.
A side effect of not assuming anything about the target state means that you swapping targets is also irrelevant, the script just blindly chooses your OH weapon for you.
However the old script, in this form also does not work.
To improve the old script rename dp_detected to equip_dp and make the following changes.
local equip_dp = false
for i=1,40 do
local n,_,_,s,_,_,x,c,_=UnitDebuff("target",i);
if n==dp_name and c=="player" then
equip_dp = ( x-GetTime() <= switch_time or s < 5 )
break
end
end
equip = equip_dp
Kinda lost using outfitter.
I start fight with wp/dp setup (named axe in outfitter)
after getting full dp stack I'd like to switch to wp/ip setup (named ip in outfitter)
5 seconds left on full dp stack I'd like to go back to wp/dp setup to refresh stack.
Rinse & repeat forever.
Thats about right?
So on which set I'm suppose to use this script and and how does it know to which set to change to? And how do I get it to initially stack to 5xdp (in my experiments set changed as soon as 1 x dp was up). I can stack it upto 5 and then initiate automatic changes, but if for some reason stack drops, script keeps changing at 1x dp.
Yes. Poisons have a chance to be applied per hit. Improved poisons increases the frequency of some poisons and the chance of others to be applied. Reaching 7% hit doesn't mean every hit will apply poison. Spell hit cap just means when your weapon applies poison it won't miss.
It's when evis or envenom overtakes rupture so you leave rupture out of the rotation completely (ruptureless). It happens at fairly high gear levels and a bit lower gear levels if you're weapon swapping assassination.
Is there math anywhere that shows that weapon swapping to slow/slow dual IP is actually a dps gain for Assassination? I have been looking around for a bit here, am unable to find it anywhere. Also, does anyone know if the Assassination spreadsheet currently models weapon swapping or not? Thank you
EDIT: I found the math that showed it was not a dps gain that was done back in March. I was wondering if anyone has done anything recently with the changes to Master Poisoner/Envenom. Thanks again.
Dual IP assassination, with eviscerate and armor pen gemming was briefly the best spec until they changed envenom, MP and nerfed Arpen. Right now the best setup is dual fast weapons, with IP/DP offhand weapon swapping. Without weapon swapping, slow MH / fast OF with IP and DP respectively, is the best setup for mutilate.
Great work so far guys, and thanks for all your help contributing back to the community!
I'm trying to follow Mav's BIS Mutilate list, and I have a couple of questions.
1) Is it wise to ignore expertise, if I take the talent Quick Recovery over murder? Since tier head and shoulders have expertise, I could go Ony head and Badge shoulders, and 258 chest/legs with the heroic10 gloves from faction. Will dps be affected?
2) As most 258+ Tier Sets are quite impossible to attain still, I only have access to 245 tier and most 258 non-tier set pieces. Since our t9 set bonus is so bad, is our BIS before 258 tier pieces: Ony head and Badge shoulders, and 258 chest/legs with the heroic10 gloves from faction?
3) Tried the ruptureless build + weapon swap in raids and it actually feels very clunky, problem with swaps and deadly poison falling, and plenty of energy clipping waiting for deadly poison before swap. Did anyone try it? Weapon swap is better on paper, but anyone think going slow MH and fast OH without weapon swap will produce better dps in raids?
4)Is gemming for AP/haste the best still even without 258 tier pieces? I read in another of your post Mav to go 51/13/7 for non-swap build, and gem agi instead of AP. How about yellow sockets? Crit?
Okay I wanted to ask this question for all classes (all spec's) but the search was to wide!
Simple question: In a raid situation, what is the minimum number of targets that you should be in range of for you to switch (partially or fully) to a AoE damage rotation?
This is not some silly question....had a tank expecting that a rogue would switch to FoK when 2 targets = lol. He also insisted that Hunter's switch to AoE when 2 or more targets stacked...I would venture to say the number might be 3 for hunters but after the 3.2.2 patch I would bet that for most rogue mechanics it has dropped to 4!
I'm a rogue....so I posted it here...but it is implicitly important to all dps classes and naturally as various changes to mechanics occur the minimum numbers would change.
(Hunters should remember that the pet only attack's one target, but the AP buff from the puppy applies to all the volley targets)
With regards to efficiency with the number of FoK targets, my numbers indicate 3 is close but likely a wash, and 4 to be worthwhile. The numbers are slightly less for mutilate due to the way focused attacks scales with the number of targets, but 4 should still be safe... 3 is too close to call due to rng.
Without weapon swapping it was 51/13/7 with agility and agility/crit gemming.
As far as weapon swapping goes, I've been using it in my rotation for a long time, and I find situations where it's beneficial as well as others when it hinders my dps. My control sample is the other rogues in my raid who do not use weapon swapping, so my relative position is my basis. The sample of my experiment is really small and granted there is a lot of RNG involved, but when weapon swapping does not work, you can see it on the meters right away. Basically, when there is a lot of target swapping or time off-target involved, such as Jarraxus hardmode and Twins, weapon swapping tends to hinder my dps. For any other fight, it pushes me ahead. For a fight, like XT, it works best.
As for being clunky, I got used to it so I almost never get energy capped due to GCD anymore, except if weapon swapping is triggered early during the AR phase. Same with DP dropping, it does not happen often as long as you have all raid buffs, including the melee haste buff. You should be aware that the 20% buff and even the 4% bonus over the basic windfury is a huge boost for weapon swapping. So if you do not have it in the raid, you mind check back with the spreadsheet if weapon swapping still increases your dps. And one last thing, simsheet does not assume you never get GCD capped, you never get energy capped, or your DP never drops. It all can happen during a simulation, depends on your strategy when you use envenoms and also on RNG. However, the simsheet still shows that despite all those negative or "clunky" side effects of weapon swapping, it still pulls ahead by a fair margin with all raid buffs and in end-game gear.
I might stick without weapon swap as I need to consider my ping (200+ with ping server) as a factor as well as my dual talent spec needing to be PVP as I do PVP alot. Also gemmed some of my gear epic gems AP/haste and will probably kill myself if Blizz nerfs weapon swap and I have to regem my entire set of gear with agi epic gems =P Also my guild mainly work on toc25, Htoc25 and most of the fights are not very melee or weapon swap friendly.
Still puzzled with expertise, and if avoiding expertise while having the talent quick recovery is a viable strategy. Any chance you experimented with that? Anyone else have?
If not it seems t9head/shoulders are our only high ilvl pieces of loot with expertise!
Anyhow great work Mav with all your info and spreadsheets and respect to those who give back to the community!
I wanted to ask if there's some kind of threshold (gear, setbonus?) when deciding wheter to go envenom only as mutilate.
Is a rupture cycle only viable with 4t8? I cant figure it using the spreadsheets... dunno.
Dual IP assassination, with eviscerate and armor pen gemming was briefly the best spec until they changed envenom, MP and nerfed Arpen. Right now the best setup is dual fast weapons, with IP/DP offhand weapon swapping. Without weapon swapping, slow MH / fast OF with IP and DP respectively, is the best setup for mutilate.
A query on this: you suggest dual fast weapons are best for weapon swapping but wouldn't it be the case that (using Mutilate as an example) one should use a slower OH with IP and a fast OH with DP such that PPM mechanics enabled IP to "stick" more frequently when used on the slower weapon but with a fast OH for the DP which ignores PPM mechanics? For example wouldn't it be wise to use a 1.8 OH with IP + a 1.4 OH with Deadly for an ideal weapon swap scenario?
I've been pouring over the threads regarding mutilate builds, and had some questions/things I want confirmed:
When people refer to 51/18/2, weapon swapping is implied, correct? There is no situation where 51/18/2 is the strongest; 51/13/7 is still the best spec for non weapon swapping.
Ruptureless build without weapon swapping -- I have seen a Mavanas post on these forums, from quite recently, that states that the best DPS for non-weapon swapping is 51/13/7, non rupture, envenom only, when in 245+ gear. Gem for Agi/Crit. Is this, in fact, true? I cannot find my way back to the post that stated this, but I took note of it being true because it was from Mavanas. Was there a discussion of this somewhere I can find? Was it simply the results of a spreadsheet? If the above is true, then I could drop blood splatter for fleet footed, correct?
I'm seeing a lot of discussion that double mongoose is the new hotness, and I've seen the discussion of the fact that haste affects the proc and that at our haste levels the proc rate of mongoose makes it stronger than berserking; at least I think that's why. But when I'm armorying people, I'm seeing MH Berserking and OH mongoose. I cannot find the discussion on why people went with Bers/Mon as opposed to Mon/Mon, or even Bers/Bers. I think I've inferred--but I can't find concrete statements--that mongoose is only for weapon swapping. Is mongoose the new enchant now, regardless of spec, or is it only the new enchant for weapon swapping?
Regarding slow OH, I've discussed that in this thread. The short version is: focused attacks overpower higher mutilate damage and higher IP application rate for offhand, so faster offhand is better. Normally, slower mainhand is better, but with weapon swapping there are 2 additional reasons that push faster mainhand ahead.
Regarding 51/18/2 vs 51/13/7, it's still my conclusion based on the simsheet that 51/13/7 is ahead of 51/18/2 unless you engage in weapon swapping. Both setups use envenom-only cycles for highest dps.
Mongoose and Berserking are very close to each other in BiS gear, you can barely see any difference in the simsheet when you compare the two enchants (p value of 10%). Mongoose pulls slightly ahead for most specs in BiS, except for combat with weapon swapping.
Was just reading some of the older outfitter talk for weapon swapping in the Incoming Rogue Changes thread.
I noticed that it was mentioned that WP/DP is the weapon set on before engage (I assume the spec is Combat since it is WP/DP), then it said something about the OH swap to a weapon that has IP. Was this a typo or was it intentional that WP/DP be basis, and IP replace DP when swapping or should it be WP for a Combat spec?
10/10/09, 9:00 AM
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