They are so wrong. Both can proc and stack.

As Saedo said, Berserker can proc off both weapons and does stack for an 800 AP gain during the double proc. Mongoose works the same way as well. Mongoose doesnt become a viable enchant until very high end ToC gearing I believe and even then is still right on par with Zerk.

Should anyone tell you otherwise about the proc characteristics of either enchant, they are misinformed.

Sometimes the same weapon can proc while Beserking from that weapon is still active. In that case the 2nd proc overwrites the first proc. This leads many people to believe they don't stack (which they do when the procs are from different weapons).

berserking can proc simultaneously. majority of the time, berserker on both weapons is the way to go.

on occasion mongoose will beat it out, but generally requires late t9 gear, sometimes weapon swapping, and a lot of other factors.

berserker x2 is the best bet in most cases

edit: dang, looks like i was a little late to the club. xP

Since Expertise was just brought up, seems a good time to ask. Forgive if this was already answered, but there's now 163 pages in this thread. Holy Crap.

Anyways. How important are the various hit caps? I imagine yellow cap is a very high priority, and I know that white cap can't be hit without seriously gimping overall DPS. But what about PHC? Or Expertise? Is it worth aiming for PHC and Expertise cap in gemming/enchants before going for other stats? Or is there a 'good enough, move on' threshold for either?

Use. The. Spreadsheet.

Yellow hit cap is rather important and will likely rank high enough in the spreadsheet that it will direct you to exceed the yellow hit cap. But unless you're wearing "of the Monkey" gear, then exceeding the yellow hit cap isn't going to be a problem. When you say "PHC", I can only assume you are referring to the poison hit cap. Again, depending on your gear, it's quite likely that you will have enough hit from gear to reach or at lease get close to the poison hit cap. Especially if you know you will have Misery or Imp FF in your raid. But in regards to gemming for increased hit, trust the spreadsheet. It's likely that you will find better gem choices than hit gems, but that's dependent upon your current setup, which the spreadsheet is best equipped to handle.

If you are Combat, you should get enough expertise from the WepEx talent that you shouldn't need to gem for it. Especially because Surprise Attacks prevents your finishers from being dodged anyway. For Mutilate, you may find yourself falling short, and in that case it's up to you to decide if maintaining better cycle stability is worth a little bit of lost dps by switching out AGI/AP gems for Exp. I think most Mutilate rogues here would recommend that you at least gem expertise to the point that you are close to the cap of 26.

Berserking CAN proc on both weapons, and you should be using double Berserking until very high levels of gear allow Mongoose to catch up because of the value of Haste.

Edit: Shit, this is late as hell... My bad, I hit the button at the side of the thread and thought I was answering the newest post since it was at the bottom of the page, but I guess it was quite a while ago. = /

Yeah i understand that the spreadsheet does not take into consideration those things i was judging it on the fact the the eviserate only suggested cycle was flat out lower dps then the standard rupture cyle it has been said that it is only for top gear that it becomes a higher dps cycle. But i have all pieces 245 except 232 weapons and 200 trinkets some im assuming that is not the case.

I've used several different spreadsheets...and I seem to be coming up with the same info: that swapping out my 4pc t8 for 4pc t9 is about a 300 dps decrease. I know it's been said that the t8 bonuses were just really awesome. But are they so awesome that I have to stick with them till Icecrown?

The other pieces I have are all 245/258, and I don't have any ArP trinkets.

I've recently acquired some gear and the BiS MH dagger for a mutliate build. Im trying to find a good thread on weapon swapping and late T9 rotations. I am currently CQC and havent played mut for quite awhile

Flairy, my friend - message me on Gnomer. I went from full 8.5 to 4pc 9.245 (with one 245 ToGC 10 man item). With some gemming choices and switching to a ruptureless rotation, my DPS went up substantially.

Feel free to contact me in-game and we can go over it.

Here's my question for the number-crunchers:

I built a ruptureless set with full ArPen gemming, removed Grim Toll for Banner of Victory. The following evening I then resocketed everything for Agi, putting Grim Toll back in. Spreadsheet says it's a wash (well, close enough anyway), and actual in-game results don't show any significant benefit to either.

With the ArPen gemming, I sit at about 53% passive ArPen + 20% Sunder/EA + 2.5-3% Hearty Rhino + 15% MH Mace hits. Add FF to that and I'm hitting at about 95% or so continually throughout a fight.
With Agi gemming, plus the usual boss debuffs, I exceed the cap when Grim Toll procs.

My gut tells me that I should be sticking with the ArPen build for a more steady flow of DPS through a fight.
My question: what advantages would I have sticking with the Agi/Grim Toll setup over the ArPen/Banner of Victory build, if any? The numbers are essentially equal.

A lot of it has to do with armor penetration in that at a certain point eviscerate exceeds the damage rupture does over its duration due to the fact that eviscerate has higher base damage and when it's no longer mitigated by armor it does more damage than rupture.

You may consider trying to socket with armor penetration up to the cap in the sheet and see what the numbers do. Ultimately, if it isn't a significant increase over rupture, use rupture. Keep in mind that armor penetration was nerfed in 3.2.2 and also you're not using a mace so you'll have to stack a little higher than maybe you're comfortable with.

As far as I'm aware sunder isn't an additive increase to your armor penetration. Sorry for the double post. D:

Nothing but your personal ArP number and Mace Spec is taken into account when considering your actual ArP %. Sunder, EA, FF and such are all applied beforehand lowering the bosses maximum armor. Your ArP must then still reach the 1400 cap to eliminate the rest of that armor.

It's true that things like sunders and faerie fire do not add up with armor penetration. It's not true though that getting 1400 expertise will allow you to completely eliminate the rest of the armor. There is a cap on how much of armor is going to be affected by armor penetration. For instance, with full sunders and faerie fire, bosses have 8089 reduced armor. Of that, roughly 7774 is subject to armor penetration, so even if you have 1400 armor penetration rating, the bosses armor will be reduced to about 315, which will then go into calculations of physical damage taken fromyour attacks. Combat ratings thread in Class Mechanics forum has the details.

After some extensive searching, I've come across numerous posts that encourage shooting for the poison cap. However, I can't get any of the spreadsheets to tell me that hit should ever be gemmed over AP or agility for combat or mutilate at any gear level (barring being under the yellow hit cap, of course). Normally, I'd simply take the spreadsheet's word for it, but the notion that the poison cap is high priority felt overwhelming on the forums. In fact, the only posts I've found that directly suggest otherwise refer to the outdated stat weights in the pocket guide.

So my question is, is what the spreadsheets are telling me correct? Is it or is it not optimal to gem for hit below the poison cap?

The Roguecraft spreadsheet (also in these forums) includes lower gear.

Or you could just add items to the sheet.

If I understand you correctly, you're trying to decide what to base your decision on: Posts containing anecdotal evidence about the importance of the poison hit cap or the theorycrafting behind the spreadsheets. If that's the case, I'd trust the spreadsheet. Even if the posts in question are of a high quality. But that's just me.

Because to some extent, it depends on your personal preferences and how you like to play; meaning, it's a bit like the soft Expertise cap: You're probably not going to find a spreadsheet that'd advice you to gem for Expertise if you're at, say, 23 Expertise (or at any Expertise level, I suppose). However, some people dislike playing with the added risk of rotation disruption which comes with not being Expertise capped - those people prefer to reach 26 Expertise, even if doing so reduces their theoretical dps a bit.

This is probably also influenced by the fact that in most cases it's relatively easy to reach the Expertise soft cap; and as such, it prompts a reasoning along the lines of: "If dodge immunity comes at a relatively low dps cost, why not go for it. Just to be sure".

In this sense, it's true that the poison hit cap is a worthwhile thing to aim for, but it doesn't necessarily mean actually reaching it will yield the highest theoretical dps for you. In fact, it probably won't. However, like with the soft Expertise cap, some people prefer the safety of knowing that none of their poison attacks will miss - eventhough the respective benefits of reaching those two caps differ quite a bit.

So, to answer your question: In terms of striving for the highest possible theoretical dps, it's optimal to gem what the spreadsheet advices you to gem. However, if you'd feel better knowing that none of your poison attacks will miss, then it's optimal to gem for hit rating as much as you need to.

The difference between this and expertise gemming is that the cycle instability caused by a dodged finisher is poorly modeled by the spreadsheet, which results in it displaying a potentially lower value for expertise than there actually is, furthermore dodged finishers can effect your play style.

The dps loss from a missed poison attack is modeled accurately by the spreadsheet, and having your poisons miss does not effect play style at all "(IE: you are unlikely to use your abilities any differently in response to a missed poison) The advantages and disadvantages of poison hit are very clearly modeled already so it is safe to trust the spreadsheet on this matter. However Ald's spreadsheet does not model weapon swapping, which my intuition tells me would increase the value of poison hit pretty dramatically.

Weapon swapping also increases the value of white hit and the value of expertise. In BiS gear for combat with weapon swapping, expertise and white hit capping becomes a valid strategy. However, for mutilate expertise is still below agility and attack power, even after you properly simulate the dps loss from potential cycle instability. It should be noted, that with ruptureless cycles, the probablity of an actual cycle disruption is much lower, and the value of expertise due to cycle stability reasons is lower.

Consider the following scenario: Tank, RogueA and RogueB.

RogueA TotT -> RogueB TotT -> Tank (all at the same time). Will Tank recieve the threat combined of RogueA and RogueB?

The reason I'm asking is when RogueA forgets that he has to TotT the tank (beasts HC after respawn), and RogueB suddenly sits with double threat. Is it possible to use above solution as an emergency counter to prevent aggro?