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Old 11/02/09, 3:41 PM   #4101
Santander
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Norgannon
slow offhand conundrum

I'm a 15/51/5 Combat Rogue with 5 points in Hack and Slash and one in CQC (just for kicks, that last point is kind of a floating one, could go Sprint, obviously).

My DPS results (10 minute tests) both on the training dummy and in actual raid situations are that Raging Deathbringer (MH) and Malice (!) (OH) is a better combination than Raging Deathbringer (MN) and Steel Bladebreaker (245, OH), with FoK totally out of the picture, just a normal rotation (with rupture). Both Malice and Bladebreaker are enchanted with Mongoose, both have deadly poison in these situations.

Does anybody know what's going on here? I have the same expertise with both offhands, am above poison hit cap with both, the Malice setup has better haste, that's about it. Why would a much slower offhand yield better results than a much faster one with higher damage?

I first noticed this (Deathbringer / Malice) when my only other offhand choice was Namlak's (Deathbringer / Namlak). Slower, higher damage OH won out every time, but didn't post on it. Now that I have the upgrade, this is doubly puzzling. Thanks for any theories / pointers - Zodar and company model quick offhands, and I do wonder if some very high damage slow offhands might be situationally better than some lower damage quick offhands that rate very highly MAEP.
 
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Old 11/02/09, 6:17 PM   #4102
Istaril
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
The simple answer; you have 5 pts in Hack and Slash... swings from Malice are proccing HnS.

You'll find even better results with a faster axe/sword offhand.
 
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Old 11/02/09, 9:27 PM   #4103
Furyum
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Just a quick question. Having gotten back into my Rogue, i'm wondering what the deal is with Energy Pooling.

Does it happen/is it a DPS boost in Combat spec? In the spreadsheet i'm using it says 'Slice and Dice is refreshed with 5 combo points if you can pool within n seconds of SnD dropping; otherwise, it is refreshed with whatever combo points you have as the previous Slice and Dice is dropping.' It suggests that n is 3.2 seconds but i'm honestly confused by the sentence.

Thanks for any replys.
 
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Old 11/03/09, 1:33 AM   #4104
Thaela
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth
Energy pooling isn't a dps boost for combat spec per se, but reducing the number of times you hit SnD (and thus spend energy) will be. Pooling energy for combat is really only advantagous in limited circumstances where you can look forward to temp buffs being up for you to chain an extra finisher in (aka, the way mutilate plays) or so you don't clip SnD (early, without dropping it completely obviously) or Rupture and waste energy.

I'm not familiar with the spreadsheet, but the basic rule of thumb (the way I see it):
Can I get another evis in and still get enough combo points to refresh SnD after? If not, pool as much as possible before hitting SnD.
 
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Old 11/03/09, 9:25 AM   #4105
paulsen
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Furyum View Post
Just a quick question. Having gotten back into my Rogue, i'm wondering what the deal is with Energy Pooling.

Does it happen/is it a DPS boost in Combat spec? In the spreadsheet i'm using it says 'Slice and Dice is refreshed with 5 combo points if you can pool within n seconds of SnD dropping; otherwise, it is refreshed with whatever combo points you have as the previous Slice and Dice is dropping.' It suggests that n is 3.2 seconds but i'm honestly confused by the sentence.

Thanks for any replys.
Imagine that rupture and SnD has plenty of seconds left, and you're at 0 energy with 5 combo points waiting (not very likely, but I wrote it that way to explain better). If you can manage to wait to 80 energy before you refresh SnD you'll have more energy to rebuild rupture fast and maybe throw in a Evis. If you don't wait (and cap SnD) you'll probably not get the chance to throw in a 2point evis or similar.

It's a DPS boost, if you don't mess up. It requires alot of training (and depends on buffs, so don't test this on a dummy).
 
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Old 11/03/09, 12:58 PM   #4106
Xynen
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Agamaggan
Originally Posted by paulsen View Post
Imagine that rupture and SnD has plenty of seconds left, and you're at 0 energy with 5 combo points waiting (not very likely, but I wrote it that way to explain better). If you can manage to wait to 80 energy before you refresh SnD you'll have more energy to rebuild rupture fast and maybe throw in a Evis. If you don't wait (and cap SnD) you'll probably not get the chance to throw in a 2point evis or similar.

It's a DPS boost, if you don't mess up. It requires alot of training (and depends on buffs, so don't test this on a dummy).
There's no reason not to test this on a dummy. While your haste will be buffed in a raid, and thus your energy regen will be increased (assuming combat potency) attacking a test dummy on your own can still get you used to the time constraints of keeping SnD and Rupture up without clipping either one. If you can learn to budget your time and energy between Snd and Rupture (and even Expose armor if you have no Warrior) with time enough to spare for Eviscerate in between, then chances are your windows of opportunity will be larger during melee heavy fights and you'll be more likely to spot them and make use of the extra burst.
 
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Old 11/03/09, 8:35 PM   #4107
paulsen
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Xynen View Post
While your haste will be buffed in a raid, and thus your energy regen will be increased
And your crit (sinister strike glyph) and hit chance (combat potency), in addition to the haste you're mentioning. It's quite the difference in a fully raid buffed setup and against a target dummy with zero buffs and debuffs.

This is essentially why we are asking people to stop coming to these forums complaining about their DPS being way too low on a combat dummy versus what they got told to be their (theoretically) DPS in a spreadsheet. The spreadsheets are made for a reason
 
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Old 11/03/09, 8:55 PM   #4108
Valustria
was Auturgist; still a witch!
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I feel like I should know the answer to this, but the talent's tooltip caused me to doubt:

Can Slice and Dice proc a combo point via Ruthlessness?

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings
 
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Old 11/03/09, 9:45 PM   #4109
Jaron
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Ruthlessness:

Gives your melee finishing moves a 20% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Slice and Dice:

Finishing move that increases melee attack speed by 40%. Last longer per combo point:


Based on the information above... read exactly from each tooltip, I would say yes; Slice and Dice can proc Ruthlessness.
 
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Old 11/03/09, 9:46 PM   #4110
Valustria
was Auturgist; still a witch!
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
But all the other finishing moves state "Melee Range" -- so does the move have to be a melee attack, or anything that affects melee (as in the case of SnD)?

"In emptiness there is good, but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the way exists, and the mind is empty."
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Scroll of Emptiness, The Book of Five Rings
 
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Old 11/03/09, 10:31 PM   #4111
 Vulajin
Now with 100%* less failure.
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
But all the other finishing moves state "Melee Range" -- so does the move have to be a melee attack, or anything that affects melee (as in the case of SnD)?
It excludes Deadly Throw. That's it.

Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
No expansion is complete without trolls. I expect now we'll discover that Arthas has been raising hordes of zombie-trolls in the secret troll hovel of Zul'Crown.
 
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Old 11/04/09, 6:24 AM   #4112
Jeppathum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Moonglade (EU)
I've found SnD proccing a combo point quite handy in AOE fights where I don't want to use 60 energy to mutilate to get cps but i can often get one and keep it through lucky procs for a few uses of SnD.
 
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Old 11/04/09, 1:12 PM   #4113
Yuntiff
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
But all the other finishing moves state "Melee Range" -- so does the move have to be a melee attack, or anything that affects melee (as in the case of SnD)?
SnD does not have to be in melee range to use or to proc Ruthlessness. Occasionally on Faction Champions I'll toss a SS on an add I'm passing by on the way to the kill target, hit SnD before I get to the kill target, and be able to refresh it again thanks to my fresh new combo point.

Edit: Oops, looks like I was too late on that response, my mistake.
 
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Old 11/04/09, 6:52 PM   #4114
Santander
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Norgannon
superbasic rotation question

Are you combat rogues

A. only hitting your sinister strike key (or macro) when you have exactly enough energy to trigger it?
B. constantly hitting the sinister strike key as your basic attack?

This is to say, if one were to listen to you at your keyboard, does one hear a constant stream of the same key being smashed over and over five times a second, or a choreographed pattern of only hitting your special attacks when you have the energy ready?

Also: do you have macros bound to every special attack (SS, SnD, R, E) including autoattack instructions, or are you using the buttons straight off of the character sheet, dragged to your bars?
 
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Old 11/04/09, 7:29 PM   #4115
bural
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Use the mousewheel tilt function to constantly send key-up messages to the client. This allows you to use Sinister Strike as soon as possible without the need for constant clicking. It's very close to the (illegal) automation described in The AutoHotKey Thread, but as we're energy capped it doesn't really up our actions per minute and as mousetilt simply mimmicks constant mousescrolling, I'll keep doing it. If you tie any of the original weapon swap macros to it however, you could be in trouble.

That said, don't forget to pool energy for procs, proper snd clipping and tricks syncing.

Having a Sinister Strike macro with a shift modifier for SnD is very helpfull. While you're add it, add /startattack to that and your FOK makro (which should have a shiftmodifier for weaponswaps) to maximize autoattacks
 
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Old 11/04/09, 9:43 PM   #4116
Xynen
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Agamaggan
Originally Posted by Santander View Post
Are you combat rogues

A. only hitting your sinister strike key (or macro) when you have exactly enough energy to trigger it?
B. constantly hitting the sinister strike key as your basic attack?

This is to say, if one were to listen to you at your keyboard, does one hear a constant stream of the same key being smashed over and over five times a second, or a choreographed pattern of only hitting your special attacks when you have the energy ready?

Also: do you have macros bound to every special attack (SS, SnD, R, E) including autoattack instructions, or are you using the buttons straight off of the character sheet, dragged to your bars?
A: No, you don't ever want to be without energy. I hit SS when I'm at sixty energy or so, so I can have enough energy for any thing I may need it for.
B: Yes SS is combats basic attack used as explained in A.

I have almost everything keybound but the only thing with auto attack instructions is my vanish macro. Everything else starts auto attack anyway, excluding Gouge which stops it.
 
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Old 11/04/09, 9:57 PM   #4117
 Aldriana
Super Macho Man
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Proudmoore
I'd argue that your first point, while it applies to some fights, is invalid in general. There are some fights where you want to save energy for other abilities - for instance, when you're kicking you need to be sure to always have 25. However, there are other fights - say, Icehowl - where it behooves you to spend down, so it takes longer to cap out when you get whirled or stomped out of melee range. On such a fight, if you're not spending down, any energy you have in your bar is wasted when one of the knockback effects occur.

Hence: there are times when you want to save energy. There are times when you don't. On most fights, unless you have specific reason to do otherwise, spending down is fine; my sense is that most rogues do just spam Sinister Strike, except when they're specifically pooling for cycle reasons, kicking, or some other application. And that's totally fine. It's just a matter of knowing when you should and shouldn't do so.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 7:39 AM   #4118
Tensho
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Xynen View Post
A: No, you don't ever want to be without energy. I hit SS when I'm at sixty energy or so, so I can have enough energy for any thing I may need it for.
In cases where you have Hysteria, or are under some other damage increasing buff for a period of time, shouldnt we try to squeeze out as many SS/Finishers as we can in this time?

Ill be honest unless i know im close to trinket procs or I am going to get a buff of some sort, i dont really pool energy. Is it considered a loss of DPS by not doing so?
 
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Old 11/05/09, 9:40 AM   #4119
DrRusty
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Baelgun
is it a good idea to spec into improve expose armor (rather than blood spatter) and replace glyph of rupture with glyph of expose armor for ruptureless mutilate? I tried not using EA and just using envenom, but I ended up with a lot of envenom buff overlap. I also tried to envenom as close to, or right after the envenom buff wore off, but sometimes I energy capped from waiting too much.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 11:09 AM   #4120
Hassam
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Sporeggar (EU)
At a glance, 5 stacks of Sunder Armor and Expose Armor will not stack in terms of armor reduction, so in terms of 25man raid utility having +10 secs on Expose Armor and less energy per Expose Armor finished will be less beneficial to you (and everyone else) than increased rupture uptime and rupture ticks pushing your DPS up.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 12:02 PM   #4121
Mavanas
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Unless you are in charge of exposing armor in your raids, a glyph of tricks of the trade sounds like a much better option for the third glyph in ruptureless mutilate. Also points in Blood Spatter could go to Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 1:05 PM   #4122
Onslaught
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Deathwing
I am a human rogue and im sitting at 22 expertise I have 2 points in weapons expertise.


I was looking at the pocket guide
26 expertise (214 expertise rating) to cap.
16 expertise (132 expertise rating) to cap for rogues with 2/2 Weapon Expertise.
13 expertise (107 expertise rating) to cap for combat human rogues wielding a sword/mace.
11 expertise (91 expertise rating) to cap for combat dwarf rogues wielding a mace.
11 expertise (91 expertise rating) to cap for combat orc rogues wielding a fist/axe.

The above numbers are the expertise numbers needed from gear to cap.
The character tooltip should read 26 expertise.

Is this saying because im a human with 2 points into weapon expertise that I only need 16 to be capped?
 
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Old 11/05/09, 3:08 PM   #4123
pfooti
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Wyrmrest Accord
Originally Posted by Onslaught View Post
I am a human rogue and im sitting at 22 expertise I have 2 points in weapons expertise.
If your character sheet says "22", you're not capped. Both the human bonus and the talent bonus are included in that number (unlike, say the calculated hit rating that shows at mouseover, which doesn't include precision).

http://www.castrandom.com - we're not sure what it's about either.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 6:32 PM   #4124
RazorOye
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
You can, and to some extent they already do - my Combat sheet, for instance, allows some SnD overlap when computing cycles to deal with the fact that cycles are imperfect.

Thing is - particularly as combat - latency doesn't tend to be a large factor. As long as your energy doesn't cap out, you're not really losing any DPS by doing a move a second or two late (or early). As long as your cycles are working out, it's more or less fine.
Latency has become an increasingly important issue for me. They are doing some work on the high speed lines in the area and I'll be suffering this way for at least a couple weeks.

I routinely run b/w 700-1k latency in ToGC Heroic (both 25 and 10) and there was a significant difference between the dps I did last week on Anub 10mH and the dps I did this week. In fact, there was a significant difference between the dps I did overall in the raid this week vs. last week.

So I'm trying to rectify that with the assertion that I'm "not really losing any DPS" - it certainly feels that way.

I've been beating my head against the keyboard trying to find something else that was different - but the raid makeup was essentially the same. I think we had a ret pally this week instead of a second lock like we had last week.

But I moved from second last week in DPS to last among the damage dealers last night. And it's frustrating - because I don't know a way to model the extent to which, if any, the high latency is adversely affecting my DPS.
 
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Old 11/05/09, 10:05 PM   #4125
dirtlord
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Anetheron
Im a combat rogue mace spec who just happend into some daggers. So I said to my self hey a wepon switch macro to daggers for fok would be nice since that would produce more dps, only i couldn't find a macro that would switch both wepons, then switch back does anyone know of a macro for this ?
 
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