Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 189

chalon · 05/11/09, 5:56 PM

The "chance" that Wound Poison has by default is higher than the "chance" that Instant Poison has by default. Thus, even though each time Instant Poison lands, it does more damage than Wound Poison, it's PPM (procs per minute) is low enough such that Wound Poison is still the better choice.

There is an AP crossover point where Instant Poison will do so much more damage than Wound Poison, that regardless of its lower proc rate it will do more DPS. With 0/5 Improved Poisons, that point is something like 10k+ Attack Power, which isn't particularly viable. However, as you begin to add points to Improved Poisons, that crossover point starts to go down. At 2/5 Improved Poisons its's somewhere in the 4k range, which is easily achievable when raid buffed.

So, long story short: if you are Combat, you will have 0/5 Improved Poisons, so the higher proc rate of Wound Poison wins out. If you are Mutilate, you will have 5/5 Improved Poisons, and there is no situation where you want to use Wound Poison instead of Instant Poison (unless you really need the -healing debuff for a fight).

Valustria · 05/11/09, 6:21 PM

I have a quick question or two about weapon selection. I've currently got two sets of combat weapons I could equip, both enchanted with Berserking:

[Calamity's Grasp] & [Webbed Death] vs. [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] & [Stonerender]

Now, according to Aldriana's spreadsheet, with my gear and running a 15/51/5 combat build, the maces come out approx. 28 DPS above the CG/WD. My question is: Am I going to put out more or less AoE damage using the maces, given that Fan of Knives deals 150% dagger damage? Is the difference, if less, enough to warrant sticking with the CQC weapons anyway?

I guess I'm just hesitant to go from what used to be best-in-slot weapons to another spec with weapons that -- while seemingly upgrades -- are not the same type and leave something to be desired in terms of offhand swing speed. Anyone else make this jump? Did you stick with maces, or go back?

• Aldriana · 05/11/09, 6:25 PM

There is actually no crossover at 0/5 Improved Poisons - they scale equally, and Wound Poison starts ahead, so stays ahead. However, starting at 1/5, Improved Poisons slowly catches up - though, as noted, it takes an unrealistic amount of AP to get to that crossover point.

The secondary factor that boosts the value of IP is usage of Envenom; if you're Envenoming anyway, the increased IP proc rate somewhat increases the value of Instant Poison - however, as a general rule, if you don't have Improved Poisons, Wound Poison + Eviscerate tends to outpace Instant Poison + Envenom anyway. Thus, in practice, we arrive at the rule of thumb in the FAQ - if you have points in Improved Poisons, use Instant Poison; otherwise Wound.

lucian666 · 05/11/09, 6:46 PM

Question about Combat

I am playing a 15/51/5 CQC combat, and i've found out on internet (mmo-champion's foruns and here) 3 viable stat-stacking build, one focus in AGI, another in Arp and another in AP. I am using the last one.

I'd like to know if there is somekindf of agreement in which 'build' you can reach the max dps possible or it's just dependable on the playstyle.

Thx!

stickybuns · 05/11/09, 7:26 PM

In regards to OH poisons, the Pocket Guide to WOTLK recommends Deadly Poison for Combat Rogues. If I recall correctly, prior to 3.1, WP/WP was better for DPS for Combat Rogues without Improved Poisons Talent. What changed with Deadly Poison to make it now better? Once Vulajin finds time to update the Rogue Spreadsheet, I can input the different poison combinations along with the different rotations, but until then I am just speculating as I cannot find a way to input two seperate poisons with Aldriana's Spreadsheet.

• Aldriana · 05/11/09, 7:31 PM

Well, they upped the AP scaling of DP from .08 to .12, for one. And they gave us a powerful set bonus based off Deadly Poison, for two.

chalon · 05/11/09, 7:42 PM

The Deadly Poison AP coefficient was increased in 3.1.

Feist-Mok · 05/11/09, 8:12 PM

I've seen the Dusk Blade mentioned in a few of the Armor Pen discussions as being a helpful testing tool and I'm curious, since Wowhead comments aren't terribly helpful - is there a cooldown on the proc? What sort of buff uptime can you get with it?

Kukulcan · 05/12/09, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

I have a quick question or two about weapon selection. I've currently got two sets of combat weapons I could equip, both enchanted with Berserking:

[Calamity's Grasp] & [Webbed Death] vs. [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] & [Stonerender]

Now, according to Aldriana's spreadsheet, with my gear and running a 15/51/5 combat build, the maces come out approx. 28 DPS above the CG/WD. My question is: Am I going to put out more or less AoE damage using the maces, given that Fan of Knives deals 150% dagger damage? Is the difference, if less, enough to warrant sticking with the CQC weapons anyway?

I guess I'm just hesitant to go from what used to be best-in-slot weapons to another spec with weapons that -- while seemingly upgrades -- are not the same type and leave something to be desired in terms of offhand swing speed. Anyone else make this jump? Did you stick with maces, or go back?

Well , the 2 weapons seem to have very different levels of dps , especially for the offhand... but i think that the best combo overall of combat weapons from hc ulduar is still the dual sword , that should come forward the 2 maces. I'd personally stick with the maces if i would have them ( i have CG&WD now ) , and need the swords if they come out.

Gorsgo · 05/12/09, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

I have a quick question or two about weapon selection. I've currently got two sets of combat weapons I could equip, both enchanted with Berserking:

[Calamity's Grasp] & [Webbed Death] vs. [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] & [Stonerender]

Now, according to Aldriana's spreadsheet, with my gear and running a 15/51/5 combat build, the maces come out approx. 28 DPS above the CG/WD. My question is: Am I going to put out more or less AoE damage using the maces, given that Fan of Knives deals 150% dagger damage? Is the difference, if less, enough to warrant sticking with the CQC weapons anyway?

If you're concerned about FoK damage you should just pick up a slow decent quality offhand rather than dagger vs non-dagger. I wouldn't consider it a selling point in either direction other than Thorim P2, in which case you'll do more with dual 2.6+ dual wound than anything else.

Gern · 05/12/09, 5:33 PM

Speaking of FoK, when is it typically greater than single target dps, when there's 3 or more targets? Four or more?

Feist-Mok · 05/12/09, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gern

Speaking of FoK, when is it typically greater than single target dps, when there's 3 or more targets? Four or more?

The generally accepted number is 3 while keeping up Slice and Dice on a primary target. Of course, this assumes all three targets to be of equal priority, which is rarely the case, so it will largely depend on your judgment and the specific encounter at hand.

Valustria · 05/12/09, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok

The generally accepted number is 3 while keeping up Slice and Dice on a primary target. Of course, this assumes all three targets to be of equal priority, which is rarely the case, so it will largely depend on your judgment and the specific encounter at hand.

For what it's worth, even if one of the targets is of higher priority, it's still often worth doing when the numbers favor FoK. For instance: during the Razorscale encounter, I'll target the Watcher, get my SnD going, and then start the fan spam as long as I have energy reserved for a Kick if the Watcher starts to cast Chain Lightning. Combined with the other AoE that raid members are putting out, FoK helps everything die pretty quickly, so I see no reason to do less overall damage just so one mob dies a little faster than the rest. (And with white hits on the Watcher, he's still dying ahead of the rest.)

In fact, I would argue unless there is CC to maintain, as in the case of the tunnel to Thorim, Fan away when the numbers support doing so. Just be ready to interrupt single adds that need to be interrupted.

Feist-Mok · 05/12/09, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

For what it's worth, even if one of the targets is of higher priority, it's still often worth doing when the numbers favor FoK. For instance: during the Razorscale encounter, I'll target the Watcher, get my SnD going, and then start the fan spam as long as I have energy reserved for a Kick if the Watcher starts to cast Chain Lightning. Combined with the other AoE that raid members are putting out, FoK helps everything die pretty quickly, so I see no reason to do less overall damage just so one mob dies a little faster than the rest. (And with white hits on the Watcher, he's still dying ahead of the rest.)

In fact, I would argue unless there is CC to maintain, as in the case of the tunnel to Thorim, Fan away when the numbers support doing so. Just be ready to interrupt single adds that need to be interrupted.

A good example of when not to FoK even when the numbers support it is Freya's 3 add wave. If one of the mobs is substantially higher on health, you'll want to use single-target damage on the one add to burn it lower and to avoid accidentally killing off one of the others too soon. Similarly, combo points help us in performing one of our primary utility roles at that particular moment of that fight, in the form of Kidney Shotting the water elemental or storm lasher as needed.

Kologarn would be another example - yes, you have 3 targets in range at all times, but spamming FoK for the whole fight is a minimal personal DPS gain, at a substantial loss to 'Right Arm' DPS, which is what really matters in terms of controlling the flow of the fight - though during the final burn it may be worthwhile, especially working on an achievement.

Like I said, a lot of that sort of advice is encounter specific, and a lot of it will come down to the judgement of an individual rogue, and the strategy called for by a particular fight in terms of target priority. Just because you can hit 3 mobs, does not always mean that you should hit 3 mobs, which in turn doesn't mean that you shouldn't either. But if you can, and all you care about is padding the meter, then by all means, 3 is the break point at which you're better off FoKing then you are killing them one at a time.

Valustria · 05/12/09, 10:15 PM

Good call on the counter examples. I figured it was obvious specific boss strategies overruled the standard rule of Fan on 3+ mobs -- I mean, the Rogue Commandments always apply first and foremost. = )