Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11/26/08, 12:58 PM   #271
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by MissnL1nK View Post
When speccing a HaT build would it be better to gem for AP than Agil in the long run being most of the dmg is coming from specials? I haven't seen many people posting on HaT lately so I am interested to see if this is true.
It's hard to say, since Agi adds to your crit chances, improving the amount of bonus CP's you generate yourself.

On top of that:
Sinister Calling and Deadliness stack. So 100 Agi translates into 115 Agi from SC, adding 115 AP + crits, which translates into 126.5 AP through Deadliness + crits. While 200 AP translates into 220 AP through Deadliness.

Stat weights are definitely different for HaT builds, but it's hard to say what they are exactly, since modeling HaT to figure them out is way too much work (for now). It might be more towards AP by default, but the stacking of Deadliness and Sinister Calling, and your own CP generation through crits seems to even out this offset again.
The only combat stat that I can tell which is definitely of less value to HaT builds would be Haste, since it provides no energy regeneration like it does for Mutilate and Combat builds.

HaT specs are basically uncharted territories, and theorycrafting is staying away from it for now, since it's
a) too hard to model, given all the other things that still need modeling. It's basically at the end of a long wishlist.
b) assumed to not be on par with Combat or Mutilate builds, since the finishers used have no Weapondamage component, while combomoves do. Weapondamage improves more than weapon statbonusses do, so it's basically assumed that standard combomoves will take over from finisher spamming pretty soon.
c) HaT specs rely on the crits in your party. It will take a little while to get the awesome critrates we had in the final days of TBC back, and it's assumed that (b) will have taken place by that time.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 2:23 PM   #272
Hallagenic
Banned
 
Human Rogue
 
Malfurion
Originally Posted by Fjell View Post
The big change to mechanics was the change to WF totem. It's a haste buff now, instead of a bonus attack.

Mobs can still dodge when you attack from behind. Expertise tends to be nice because it affects yellow AND white, whereas hit tends to only affect white once you get past the fairly easy to reach yellow hit cap.
Ok yes but that is my point. I mean sure we can cap over yellow and get more expertese wich will help to not be dodge parried.. great but the source of majority rogue damage is white. So why did we suddenly stop thinking we need to gear to help that wich does the most of are dps. I mean you could cap yellow in tbc at what 190 but you didnt stop there. Even if you eqauate that having more expertese allows for lower hit were still going to need enough hit that are whites nearly never miss.

I know for a fact that that is well over 222 so my question is provided around 132 or more expertese.. ie caped.. what hit average should we look to to cap white dps, as i think this will severly cripple are overall dps by not capping just like it would have in tbc. My math puts it at around 622 not taking into account expertese with the new 32.26 hit for 1% rating or close to that. 622 puts you just around 18% not talented and with talented in the ball park of 23% not capped but should be suffiecent to see a dirastict imp on not missing.

This is really what my question comes down to.. not asking for a magic number im just asking for a general amount.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 2:28 PM   #273
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
Ok yes but that is my point. I mean sure we can cap over yellow and get more expertese wich will help to not be dodge parried.. great but the source of majority rogue damage is white. So why did we suddenly stop thinking we need to gear to help that wich does the most of are dps. I mean you could cap yellow in tbc at what 190 but you didnt stop there. Even if you eqauate that having more expertese allows for lower hit were still going to need enough hit that are whites nearly never miss.

I know for a fact that that is well over 222 so my question is provided around 132 or more expertese.. ie caped.. what hit average should we look to to cap white dps, as i think this will severly cripple are overall dps by not capping just like it would have in tbc. My math puts it at around 622 not taking into account expertese with the new 32.26 hit for 1% rating or close to that. 622 puts you just around 18% not talented and with talented in the ball park of 23% not capped but should be suffiecent to see a dirastict imp on not missing.

This is really what my question comes down to.. not asking for a magic number im just asking for a general amount.
Which is basically the same as asking for a magic number. Stop miring yourself in this type of thinking, it is wrong and bad. Get the gear that is indicated to provide the most DPS by spreadsheets or other tools, and gem for the stats that provide the highest DPS per point. Your resulting stats will be what they will be. If you aim for magic numbers you are always doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

United States Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:23 PM   #274
Dev93L
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Shadowsong
I really hate asking stupid questions, and I know a lot of Rogues are going to rightfully roll their eyes at this, but I've tried to figure this out for a long time and I cannot.

I specced 5/5 CQC, fist mainhand, dagger offhand.

If I remove the fist and substitute any other weapon type in its place in the mainhand slot, I lose approximately 10% of my crit. It seriously goes from 28-29 down to 19%. I lose nothing when unequipping the offhand.

Is it a tooltip error?

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:37 PM   #275
Ormack
Von Kaiser
 
Ormack's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Shadow Council
Originally Posted by Dev93L View Post
I really hate asking stupid questions, and I know a lot of Rogues are going to rightfully roll their eyes at this, but I've tried to figure this out for a long time and I cannot.

I specced 5/5 CQC, fist mainhand, dagger offhand.

If I remove the fist and substitute any other weapon type in its place in the mainhand slot, I lose approximately 10% of my crit. It seriously goes from 28-29 down to 19%. I lose nothing when unequipping the offhand.

Is it a tooltip error?

Are you using a weapon you have maxed your weapon skill on? If not you will have lower crit till you get the skill up.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:38 PM   #276
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Are you weapon skill capped for the weapon type in question?

EDIT: Beaten

United States Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:39 PM   #277
Dev93L
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Shadowsong
Originally Posted by Ormack View Post
Are you using a weapon you have maxed your weapon skill on? If not you will have lower crit till you get the skill up.
It was slightly, but now that's remedied. Even at the worst it was 15 points or so under from 365, which was my max. Awful small margin to be 10% crit, isn't it?

I can't check my armory at the moment or I would.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:43 PM   #278
yumepenguin
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Ysera
I really hate asking stupid questions, and I know a lot of Rogues are going to rightfully roll their eyes at this, but I've tried to figure this out for a long time and I cannot.

I specced 5/5 CQC, fist mainhand, dagger offhand.

If I remove the fist and substitute any other weapon type in its place in the mainhand slot, I lose approximately 10% of my crit. It seriously goes from 28-29 down to 19%. I lose nothing when unequipping the offhand.

Is it a tooltip error?
Based off of what I've seen of stats displayed on the character sheet I would say this is a tooltip error. All damage and crit % are based off of your MH (unless you hover over weapon damage, then you see your OH Damage).

Since hovering over the crit % only shows your crit rating converted into % there is no diffierntation between MH and OH for this. I suspect that once you no longer have a fist/dagger in the MH, the tooltip fails to recognize the 5% crit of your OH dagger even though it's there with that weapon.

Hope this helps.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 3:51 PM   #279
Dev93L
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Shadowsong
Originally Posted by yumepenguin View Post
Based off of what I've seen of stats displayed on the character sheet I would say this is a tooltip error. All damage and crit % are based off of your MH (unless you hover over weapon damage, then you see your OH Damage).

Since hovering over the crit % only shows your crit rating converted into % there is no diffierntation between MH and OH for this. I suspect that once you no longer have a fist/dagger in the MH, the tooltip fails to recognize the 5% crit of your OH dagger even though it's there with that weapon.

Hope this helps.
It does, and I appreciate the observation. I did some dummy testing and did not find my crit decreased by 10%, but closer to 5% as well.

Just very unnerving to see a 10% crit drop from unequipping that fist.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 4:07 PM   #280
Cyba
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorefiend
I am trying to figure out a best possible Mace MH/Sword OH build. Shadow panther has the build created as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft7/51/13, with five (5) points in both Mace spec. and Sword spec. and three (3) points in Prey on the Weak.

Question 1: Keep it the way of the panther, or tweak the spec so there are 4pts in Maces and 4 in PotW, or 3 in maces 5 in PotW.

My reasoning for the switch would be that both OH/MH benefit from the extra two points in PotW, whereas only my MH would benefit from the extra 6% armor ignore given from the two points in Mace spec.


Question 2: What is the expertise cap? (if this is acheived, then the two points in Weapon Mastery can be substituted to allow both 5 points in Mace Spec. and PotW).

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 4:24 PM   #281
sephfiroth
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Malorne
Mut question:

I spec'd Mut with only 1/2 SnD and the SnD Glyph. I felt that the uptime with 2/2 SnD is just too much, I find myself using Envenom with about 10-12 seconds remaining on SnD, with Rupture going already.
The problem I'm encountering is what to do with the spare point. I was considering just putting it into CQC or TtT.
However, theres times when Im sitting around waiting for my DP to stack, and watching my energy cap out for 3-4 seconds or more. Would It be wise to use the spare point and grab Vigor(which I and many others have considered ineffective investiture for raiding) which would allow me to pool my energy a bit longer without waste, so that right after I get DP stacked I can get a guaranteed 2x Mut and HfB refresh?

I considered refreshing HfB before things like this happen, however I've only found that in my rotations, I only really have 2 opportunities to refresh, at about 14s-15s, and about 1s-2s remaining. It's cutting it really close.

tl;dr: The energy drain from 2x Mut after Envenom is leaving me with too small a window to refresh HFB. Should I invest 1 point into Vigor(20E with glyph) to solve this problem?


side note: I think whatever saved energy not spent on cycle like this might also be used on Mut's at 4CP, turning them to 5, in essence, for free.

Really tired, sorry if it didnt make any sense.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 7:24 PM   #282
Hntar
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Combat Question:

What are your thoughts on finishing at 4 combo points instead of 5?

Raid-buffed most rogues are at 35-40%+ crit, so if you perform another sinister strike at 4 points you have a ~20% chance of "wasting" a combo point because of the sinister strike glyph.

Offline
Old 11/26/08, 9:17 PM   #283
Aeshai
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dunemaul
I have just turned 80 and am working on my pre raid gear for 10 mans. I have been given 2 Librarian's Paper Cutters which are 1.3 speed. Now I understand that my mut crits will be lower because the top end damage is less then other daggers with slower speeds. From what I've read though, the faster speeds will allow faster poison damage and faster attacks which may actually increase my dps. So when I am looking at my spec, do i want to take all the poison associated talents? What talents are crucial and which are not so important? Should I still take lethality?

If this has been discussed before please point me in the direction.

Offline
Old 11/27/08, 1:24 AM   #284
Leto
King Hippo
 
Leito
Troll Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by sephfiroth View Post
Mut question:

I spec'd Mut with only 1/2 SnD and the SnD Glyph. I felt that the uptime with 2/2 SnD is just too much, I find myself using Envenom with about 10-12 seconds remaining on SnD, with Rupture going already.
The problem I'm encountering is what to do with the spare point. I was considering just putting it into CQC or TtT.
However, theres times when Im sitting around waiting for my DP to stack, and watching my energy cap out for 3-4 seconds or more. Would It be wise to use the spare point and grab Vigor(which I and many others have considered ineffective investiture for raiding) which would allow me to pool my energy a bit longer without waste, so that right after I get DP stacked I can get a guaranteed 2x Mut and HfB refresh?

I considered refreshing HfB before things like this happen, however I've only found that in my rotations, I only really have 2 opportunities to refresh, at about 14s-15s, and about 1s-2s remaining. It's cutting it really close.

tl;dr: The energy drain from 2x Mut after Envenom is leaving me with too small a window to refresh HFB. Should I invest 1 point into Vigor(20E with glyph) to solve this problem?


side note: I think whatever saved energy not spent on cycle like this might also be used on Mut's at 4CP, turning them to 5, in essence, for free.

Really tired, sorry if it didnt make any sense.
It sounds like you're trying to stick to a set rotation, which isn't the right mind set with regards to optimizing mutilate dps.

It's a priority based decision system.

1) refresh hfb and keep snd up with envenom
2) keep rupture up as much as possible
3) envenom whenever you have pooled energy and the above criteria are able to be maintained while doing so.

There's nothing wrong with adding an extra envenom as long as snd and hfb don't drop and you don't lose enough rupture uptime to negate the extra dmg from the envenom, in fact it's preferred.

Whether points in imp snd are worth it to help you do that more, that's a different question, but it's generally accepted not to be, although I don't have the math handy for that case.

Rogue at heart.

Offline
Old 11/27/08, 3:24 AM   #285
Echophantom
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by Aeshai View Post
I have just turned 80 and am working on my pre raid gear for 10 mans. I have been given 2 Librarian's Paper Cutters which are 1.3 speed. Now I understand that my mut crits will be lower because the top end damage is less then other daggers with slower speeds. From what I've read though, the faster speeds will allow faster poison damage and faster attacks which may actually increase my dps. So when I am looking at my spec, do i want to take all the poison associated talents? What talents are crucial and which are not so important? Should I still take lethality?

If this has been discussed before please point me in the direction.
It has already been discussed in any of the innumerable "what's the best spec?" questions that have been asked.

Something similar to this is most likely what you're looking for. To answer your exact question yes, you do want all the poison talents.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Death Knight: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Death Knights 2880 12/10/10 9:50 PM
Priest: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Priests 2077 12/06/10 4:01 PM
Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Mages 2838 12/06/10 8:05 AM
Hunter: Simple Questions/Simple Answers Boethius Hunters 1974 12/02/10 8:53 AM