Okay, yesterday i posted my problem (in the wrong thread) about how I'm currently only doing a measly 1.1k dps as a level 80 rogue.
I've shamelessly come here asking for help in how to improve, after posting my concerns i was asked to upload a WWS report, so that people could see what I'm doing and could help me and after much confusion i belive i have finally done one
Combat Swords rogue (15/51/5)
Instance: Utgarde: Pinnacle.
WWS for group: Wow Web Stats
Group make up: The group make up consisted of me, a Holy Priest, Prot Paladin, Frost(i think) Mage and a Ret Paladin.
Additional information: I died two times throughout the instance, once when i got clipped and chased down by the third bosses whirlwind (wasn't after me someone ran him into me after i ran out of room), and on the last boss when someone killed me with bane.
I basically am calling upon any help i can get for my dps to be upto par, inb4 I suck and blah blah blah, any and all help is appreciated!
edit: Fixed spelling errors.
Hi Anon,
While it's hard to say exactly what you are and aren't doing right, I would recommend the following.
1) Enchant your gear/weapons.
-Mongoose is both reasonably priced and very strong and your weapons are the source of the vast majority of your dps
- As a LW you should basically continously have the top end leg enchant, it's cheap
- You have some gears sans gems at all, assuming you got it very recently
2) Maintain your rotations
- I am somewhat new to analyzing WWS so I can't tell how your rotations are, but if your dps is lower than expected it's likely due to time off target or SnD/Rupture running down
3) I don't know how to check your glyphs. I'm assuming you're running SnD/Rupture/SS. If you're not, you should be.
4) Don't sweat dps on runs that look suspiciously like pure AoE runs. You just won't be able to do much more than SnD and Evis on trash mobs and even then they don't live very long with two paladins and a mage in the group.
5) Remember how much of your dps is buff reliant. My dps almost doubles going from 10man Naxx to 25man largely because then I get a feral druid.
Combat Duration:
222 seconds
Pimpy -> 123 Eviscerate -> 1 crittable ability every 1.8 seconds
Thunderlips -> 87 Eviscarate > 1 crittable ability every 2.5 seconds
(no idea why there is such a big difference)
Since you don't want another rogue in your group, I think they were not in the same group, mabye i'm wrong. If its true, then you can see, how important the group setup is.
Combat Duration:
222 seconds
Pimpy -> 123 Eviscerate -> 1 crittable ability every 1.8 seconds
Thunderlips -> 87 Eviscarate > 1 crittable ability every 2.5 seconds
(no idea why there is such a big difference)
Thunderlips had way more Hemorrhages, this would suggest (s)he had to generate more CP's him/her self, and thus was probably in another group.
And yes, a HaT rogue might pull off a lot more crittables abilities per second, since finishers + Relentless Strikes means lower energy costs than combobuilders. A group full of HaT rogues sounds interesting, but I think you'll find that such a group will have to "power itself up" before it could become something of a perpetuem mobile. Of course, each seperate members' crit rate will directly affect the time required to get this thing going, or whether it can keep going at all.
Being a Mutilate Rogue I followed the arguments concerning fast weapon/main hand etc. and found it quite convincing. But I wonder why the new spreadsheet calculates more damage for [Sinister Revenge] 1.80 in the main hand and [Murder] 1.50 in the off hand.
Maybe I it’s a question of damage range but I am sure you can give me a detailed explanation.
Being a Mutilate Rogue I followed the arguments concerning fast weapon/main hand etc. and found it quite convincing. But I wonder why the new spreadsheet calculates more damage for [Sinister Revenge] 1.80 in the main hand and [Murder] 1.50 in the off hand.
Maybe I it’s a question of damage range but I am sure you can give me a detailed explanation.
That's because we were wrong about a fast dagger being better in the mh as opposed to the oh. The opposite is true due to mutilate having a chance to proc two poisons from the offhand.
Quick question - Does shadowstep affect rupture/garrote damage? And if so, does it just increase the total damage it does by 20%?
The tooltip would indicate it affects both. I haven't personally used shadowstep, but I know other abilities that modify dot dmg affect it for the entire duration, ie using a trinket on a rupture and having it wear off while rupture is still ticking.
I can't find a straight answer, I'm stumped as to what weapon speeds I should be looking for for mutilate. What is the absolute best speed weapons I should be looking for?
Coming from PVP I've always done 1.80/1.80 but now I'm seeing people in raids using 2 1.30s or 1.50.
I can't find a straight answer, I'm stumped as to what weapon speeds I should be looking for for mutilate. What is the absolute best speed weapons I should be looking for?
Coming from PVP I've always done 1.80/1.80 but now I'm seeing people in raids using 2 1.30s or 1.50.
It depends on the weapon. In general, faster is better, but not at the expense of dps unless the speed difference is extreme.
The current best combo available is [Sinister Revenge] main hand and [Webbed Death] offhand, with deadly poison on the main and instant on the off.
Poison hit chance is based off spellhit. Hence why the poison cap is ~17%. Therefore, one would assume poison crits are also based off spellcrit?
If so, then poisons are considered to be Spells, but their strength based on AP.
If they are spells, then would things like [Item not found!] proc off a stack of Deadly Poison?
It is something I have considered since one of my older rogue guildies mentioned Poisons at one point in time scaling off Nature damage.
That is a good question. I'd imagine testing would be required to see if poisons actually proc on-spell-hit trinkets.
Poisons aren't enhanced by our spell dmg, but they do act similarly to spells for many other mechanics.
I remember in bwl days, poison dmg would skyrocket on chromaggus during a nature vulnerability phase, but I am unsure if they still work that way. I don't see any reason why they would have changed that mechanic however.
Hey, Leto. So now slower dagger is better on MH? also, is fast dagger still better than slow ones for OH?
I used spreadsheet and I dont see how Sinister Revenge/webbed death is better than webbed death/webbed death or webbed death/sinister revenge. I am very confused here
That is a good question. I'd imagine testing would be required to see if poisons actually proc on-spell-hit trinkets.
Poisons aren't enhanced by our spell dmg, but they do act similarly to spells for many other mechanics.
Mmn. I want to satisfy my sense of curiosity, but however, we have many warlocks, and this trinket has not dropped yet. So it will be some time before myself, or any rogue might have a chance to acquire [Item not found!] to provide any evidence/proof.
I am also trying to acquire[Darkmoon Card: Death], as it should also be helpful in providing some insight. However the availability and cost of the deck is rather prohibitive. I also thought about going back to Magister's Terrace to acquire[Timbal's Focusing Crystal] to test with.
While this may be a unworthwhile adventure, it may prove useful should a similar trinket be added to the loot tables, one that provides better passive gains besides haste.
Hey, Leto. So now slower dagger is better on MH? also, is fast dagger still better than slow ones for OH?
I used spreadsheet and I dont see how Sinister Revenge/webbed death is better than webbed death/webbed death or webbed death/sinister revenge. I am very confused here
At even dps, faster is better for both hands, moreso on the offhand. Sinister revenge is the best because it is a tier of itemization higher than any other dagger, so the extra dps makes up for the slower speed.
The current version of the spreadsheet doesn't account for the extra mutilate oh poison procs, but chalon posted a fix to one cell that adjusts it. The fixed version shows sinister revenge mh, webbed death oh to be a better combination.
Mmn. I want to satisfy my sense of curiosity, but however, we have many warlocks, and this trinket has not dropped yet. So it will be some time before myself, or any rogue might have a chance to acquire [Item not found!] to provide any evidence/proof.
I am also trying to acquire[Darkmoon Card: Death], as it should also be helpful in providing some insight. However the availability and cost of the deck is rather prohibitive. I also thought about going back to Magister's Terrace to acquire[Timbal's Focusing Crystal] to test with.
While this may be a unworthwhile adventure, it may prove useful should a similar trinket be added to the loot tables, one that provides better passive gains besides haste.
I just did some theorycrafting on the trinket.
Our only periodic spell dmg is deadly poison, which ticks once every 3 seconds. At a 10% proc rate on the trinket, we get a proc once every 30 seconds.
Assuming an average dmg of around 1400 per proc (roughly accounting for crit and raid buffs), the proc adds about 47 dps. The internal cooldown is 15 sec, which is less than our expected time to proc anyway, so it is irrelevant.
I did some very rough estimations for the melee equivalent trinket that drops from sapph and I estimate the dps from that proc to be around 55-60. Since the proc dps is higher, and 190 ap is clearly better than 95 crit, the melee trinket is superior to the caster one (not surprising).
Note my math is very rough, but it should be adequate for comparing the trinkets.
Where can I find this fixed version of the spreadsheet?
Here is a link to Chalon's post explaining how to modify the spreadsheet.
I have no idea if Vulajin ever plans to implement this, as it very well may be a bug and I know he doesn't like to implement bugged mechanics. I just like having the information available now, especially since a fix would just change which hand the weapon goes in.
Our only periodic spell dmg is deadly poison, which ticks once every 3 seconds. At a 10% proc rate on the trinket, we get a proc once every 30 seconds.
Assuming an average dmg of around 1400 per proc (roughly accounting for crit and raid buffs), the proc adds about 47 dps. The internal cooldown is 15 sec, which is less than our expected time to proc anyway, so it is irrelevant.
I did some very rough estimations for the melee equivalent trinket that drops from sapph and I estimate the dps from that proc to be around 55-60. Since the proc dps is higher, and 190 ap is clearly better than 95 crit, the melee trinket is superior to the caster one (not surprising).
Note my math is very rough, but it should be adequate for comparing the trinkets.
Interesting.
So while it is not the most ideal trinket for us, it is not horrid either.
I will work on it this weekend. Hopefully some answers by monday.
To annoy guild casters slightly less, you could always try to pick up a timball's focusing crystal and see if dp procs that. Would probably not be worth the effort however.
I wonder if there are any rep reward trinkets that act similarly. That would make things simple.
To annoy guild casters slightly less, you could always try to pick up a timball's focusing crystal and see if dp procs that. Would probably not be worth the effort however.
I wonder if there are any rep reward trinkets that act similarly. That would make things simple.
Unfortunately, Timbal's and the Extract are the only 2 items in the game that have that "equipped: Peridic damage" effect.
I was wondering if anyone has done any kind of testing on the mechanics of the new armor penetration system implemented in 3.0. My main inquiry has been on the interaction of percent armor penetration abilities (Mace Spec and the new armor penetration rating) and flat armor reductions (FF, Sunder, EA). It is worth mentioning that any testing I did in this area was at level 70 pre-wrath, and I have not had the time to re-test this at level 80 due to school finals and new content, etc. The mechanics however, to the best of my knowledge, should still be the same.
I was curious once the changes were made as to whether the percentage armor reduction abilities based their armor reduction off of a targets base armor or effective armor (IE the 7700 that most bosses had base, or the 5100 they had after sunders). I attempted to test this in a variety of ways. Since gouge now has a base damage listed on the tooltip, I removed any and all armor penetration rating gear from myself and gouged the target dummies in order to determine their percent mitigation and from there determine their armor. The data I collected at the time is shown below.
With ArPR = 0
371 -> 250
25 ArPR = 3.38%
396 -> 269
ArPR = 0, Expose Armor
371 -> 293
25 ArPR = 3.38%, EA
396 ->316
Using the initial data along with the formula for level 70 damage mitigation {%=(armor/(armor + 10557.3))}, I was able to discern that the level 70 target dummies have approximately 5109.77 armor. None of that is relevant at 80, however the mechanics involved are still in place and the following is what, in my opinion at least, makes this data notable.
This armor value functions correctly when using just the ArPR data, as when the armor is reduced by 3.38 percent the theoretical damage of my gouge is equal to the actual damage. The problem I am having is that upon application of an armor reduction ability like Expose Armor (reduces enemy armor by 2600) I am getting values that are incorrect.
The problem was only compounded when utilizing both ArPR and armor reduction abilities, however, since I could not seem to calculate the flat armor reduction abilities properly, the point was moot.
In addition, when spec'd for maximum armor reduction (Mace spec, serrated blades) and utilizing all armor reduction abilities available (FF, EA, CoR) and wearing an excess of ArPR gear, in theory, the dummies armor should have been reduced to near zero if percent armor penetration mechanics were applied directly to the base armor. If percent armor reduction abilities are applied to effective armor however, I calculated that the mitigation should have been ~4.5% The dummy however was still showing a ~8% mitigation.
The questions these tests pose are the following:
Do percentage armor reduction abilities apply to a targets base armor, or the targets effective armor?
Is there some form of "soft cap" or DR on armor reduction that will prevent you from achieving an effective armor of zero, and if so, what are those caps?
If any can shed any light on these questions, it would be greatly appreciated. When time permits, I will re-conduct these tests at level 80, re-run my numbers, and see if the discrepancies persist.
Unfortunately, Timbal's and the Extract are the only 2 items in the game that have that "equipped: Peridic damage" effect.
At least from what I can tell anyways.
That is my understanding as well, but I'd imagine any trinket that specifies an effect on spell hit/crit would function similarly with regards to procs from poisons, such as [The Lightning Capacitor],
If there is an easy to acquire trinket of that category, we could test with that and possibly rule out poisons proccing spell effect trinkets. If those tests show poisons can, then maybe someone can try and get one of the two above mentioned trinkets if no caster needs.
That is my understanding as well, but I'd imagine any trinket that specifies an effect on spell hit/crit would function similarly with regards to procs from poisons, such as [The Lightning Capacitor],
If there is an easy to acquire trinket of that category, we could test with that and possibly rule out poisons proccing spell effect trinkets. If those tests show poisons can, then maybe someone can try and get one of the two above mentioned trinkets if no caster needs.
Oh bloody hell, I vendored that new Lightning Capacitor from quest rewards too.
12/04/08, 11:20 AM
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